Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Yes.
Making my own dances.
All right, welcome back to now, no opportunity wasted.
I am your host, Angelica Ross.
And there's so much going on in the world, y'.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: All.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: There's so much going on in the news cycle. I know that we are just hanging on for dear life. I don't think that our brains and our minds were meant to take in this much information all at once. The world is, listen, we're in the midst of a fascist takeover that I like to call a zombie apocalypse. I think we're actually going through a real life zombie apocalypse.
And you gotta find your people, you gotta find your folks that are not gonna sell you out for warmth and for comfort, who realize that it's none of us are free until all of us are free. I think that folks are just now starting to get that as we have seen, just Trump causing chaos all across the country. And you know, I'll tap into a little bit, a little bit better, a little bit of that a little bit later.
I'm going to be in full transparency with you right now. I got a little bit, a little bit of a headache right now because I just landed a couple of hours ago, I just landed a few hours ago at in Atlanta, Hartford Jackson International Airport. I just got back from Canada.
I went from Virginia helping to raise money for a good cause for the Virginia's national anti violence project, shout out to them.
And then I went straight from there the next day to Canada for their first, they had pride for the first time after seven year hiatus and they had a trans march. And so although I wasn't able to actually make the march, we created a special meet and greet for especially and that's where in this meet and greet I have to tell you, Edebayoka Katiti, who is the founder of the organization that brought me in Rarica, he is from Uganda, black trans man who has created a housing project for black trans folks. And I can't wait to like intercut usually, you know, in pre production I would already have some clips ready to kind of pre show you a little bit of the video footage. But I definitely will be doing so in hindsight.
But on each of the bedroom doors in the housing projects were pictures of trans icons like Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson, KYLER Brodus, Tony McDade who was a victim of, you know, anti trans violence during the George Floyd uprising.
And so just it was so amazing because I got to meet so many black trans women who were actually from refugee camps in Africa.
And they were telling me about how dangerous it was. And how, you know, some of their sisters are being killed.
You know, they talked to me about having to do sex work and wanting other opportunities. And, you know, I'm sitting at that table and my heart is just, like, wanting to explode. And I'm trying to figure out, okay, what can I. How can I help? What can I do? You know? And I had to explain to them that I do not have Scarlett Johansson privilege. I don't have white girl privilege, but I do got a black trans girl magic, and I will do my best, and I'll figure it out. So I have my flight booked to Zanzibar.
It's. Oh, it says that I'm having trouble streaming to Instagram, and that's because I never clicked Go Live.
So I'm clicking Go Live right now on Instagram. Hopefully that works. But the thing is Instagram, I love y' all and everything, but, like. And look, I think that they're not gonna let me go live on Instagram. And I'm sorry, y', all, but, like, meta, just don't be doing me right. So I just. Just don't, you know, meta, you gonna get it eventually, but you got to really get over to YouTube. So really, if you're not on YouTube, you're not really in the right place anyway. You got to be over at YouTube.comforward/miss Ross, or you head over to angelicaross.substack.com but as I was saying, I got to meet these black trans women. I'm going to figure it out. I bought my ticket. I didn't buy my ticket at a bio. Got my ticket. We go because we're going to be doing some work together, and we're going to be going to Zanzibar and traveling across the continent to meet some folks and do some work. We're going to do it safely. We're going to look at how we can do some housing projects and do some different things. So I Miss Ross. Angelica Ross will be in Africa celebrating my birthday from November to December. So, hey, we're gonna be doing a little bit of that. So before we get into things, y' all know. Y' all know what this is, though. Y' all know that this is based in Namyoho. Ringeko, you heard my theme song at the beginning of the situation.
It's because this practice that I've been practicing for about 15 years now is the reason why I'm still standing, is the reason why I have the courage, the strength, the abilities that I do is only because I've Woken up to the fact that as a trans woman, I, too, have the ability to move mountains. I, too, have some power in these little fingers right here. And when I bring them together and do some chanting, I can make some things move. So we're going to start things off with a little word from Buddhism, day by day. 8-26-6 by Daisaku Ikeda and always feel like the Word is going to be on time. So our word for today says there is no trace of coercion or concern for appearances in niche behavior because we be practicing nature and Buddhism.
He looked on to those who. He looked on those who were suffering, those who were bravely fighting alongside him as if they were himself in the same situation.
He prized each and every one of them. He encouraged them and sympathized with them. And we must never forget that the true essence of humanity is found in this.
When we observe Nichiren's actions, we deeply are struck by the conviction that this is the way a Buddha must live.
So, you know, and I know that there are other examples people doing this.
I know. I heard Jesus was like this, too. But it seems like a lot of Christians forget that kind of behavior and don't be doing like Jesus do. So I want to remind y', all, you know, of the mentors that came before us to teach us the way they hung out with all the folks. They. They focused on folks who were suffering and used their privileges not just for themselves, but for the good of each other.
So I want to dive right into this conversation, because I don't know about y', all, but over the weekend, Netflix dropped a.
They dropped breaking news, basically. It was basically breaking news. It was about the only thing that was going to get some of us to not be paying attention over there to what Trump's doing for a second. For a second. Because we have been going back and forth as a community.
I have heard a lot of y' all saying a lot of different things when it comes to Jussie Smollett. And all I want to say, first of all, is not too much on my. Not too much on my Jesse, okay? That's my. That's my boo. So not too much on my Jesse. And I, I'm so, I think, proud and just grateful that this documentary came out because it introduced a lot of new evidence that I think that, for me, it doesn't change anything. It definitely deepens my conviction on what I know, knew, and felt to be true about the situation. Because it's acap all day over here.
All cops are bad, including that damn hoa. You hear me? So it was never going to be me believing the Chicago PD over Jussie, but once I got kind of into these details, it really solidified it. But at first, it was doing a little wish washy back and forth. I didn't know what it was trying to say in the documentary. So we got the documentary person who brought the story and got Jussie to open up through such a traumatic experience and be willing to participate in this documentary. We have Abigail Carr here with us today that's going to be talking with us. We have journalist, writer and journalist Jared Hill, who was also featured in the documentary. And we also have Chelli.
Shelly. Shelly. Shelly. Shelly Stanley, who is the investigative journalist who blew the door open. And for me, it. This is what changed. This is what really changed the game, is her investigative journalism. So first, I want to bring on Shelly, because also.
Hey, Shelly girl. Hey.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: How are you?
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yes, good, good.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: I love your T shirt. Never give up. I have a similar T shirt. That's because I hear we share a similar background. We both are. Nam, Yoho, Ring A Kill Nature and Buddhist.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I know that what you just read was, like, perfect for today. I was like, yes. You know.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Yes, it really is.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And honestly, like, the only reason I could do this investigation through to now was because I practice Nichiren Buddhism. Because it's like so many times, you know, you get discouraged or there's obstacles, you want to give up. But it's like we talk about making the impossible possible, you know, and you have to battle your own self to do that, you know? Yes.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: I. I'm. You know, it all now starts to make sense to me, like, behind the scenes of how, like, some of these driving forces, you never know, like, who is behind the scenes doing certain work. And so I want to first ask you what drew you to this story and to thinking I need to look a little bit deeper.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So I. You know, my dad is from Chicago. He's black and Japanese. And, like, I was growing up there as a kid, so I saw what was happening and that, you know, just for three years. And then I was moved. You know, I moved to a different place, but that was what solidified for me, like, my desire for justice, you know, and equality and the ending of these things that are happening. And so I've been all over the world doing different work, but that vision, you know, so the fact that this happened in Chicago was what, for me was the driving force of this cannot be the Narrative. They cannot get away with this. You know, they are absolutely lying. I could, you know, I could tell they were lying. It was as clear as day to me, which is strange because obviously that wasn't the case.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: That is. That is very. I want to pause there because that is very strange to me as well, because it's. What's really interesting is that, you know, when it comes to, let's say, the NWA when it comes to, you know, our just history and understanding as a black community, it's always been f. The police. It's always been understanding that they cannot be trusted. It's. It's understanding the history of the Chicago PD with like the black box sites they would. They would have and just their participation in the Laquan McDonald case and how, like, nefarious things were there. So, so many of us were right from the get go distrust. But when it came to an LGBTQ person, I think. Do you think that those dynamics kind of shifted things for you for. For. For folks who were.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think definitely there was homophobia going on. And also I don't watch tv. You know, I very careful, like, what I consume because I've seen people lied on. And so I'm very careful, like, what sources I get. So I feel like the way the police did this, in my analysis was like, it was like watching a cop show, you know, it was like it was just on the media constantly so no one could get away from it. And then they come out with this press conference and they walk out like it's a cop show and it was just like facts. It was like they've solved the case conclusion, you know, and that was the moment everything changed. This press conference with them, you know, smoke and mirroring everybody and like.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: No, And I think they. I think they also affected public opinion. I mean, and I think, you know, it's so odd because whenever someone is.
Has to defend themselves against the, you know, our system, our criminal justice system, they always try to prevent people from going out into, you know, the public to sway public opinion. Right. And it's just so interesting to watch the system do it. And I think I saw a remnants of this as well in the Luigi Mangioni case, where it seemed like there was such a performance and pomp and circumstance for the thing, knowing that there had been things that weren't on the up and up within the investigation.
So I want to bring on two more voices here that were featured in the documentary. Well, one, Abigail Carr, who is behind getting this documentary created and bringing it to the powers that be at Netflix, and also getting Jussie to kind of open up with all of this. Can you talk to me, Abigail, about, like, what it took in the beginning stages was. Was. Was it.
Was Jussie kind of really excited about doing something like this? I feel like he wasn't, just because of all of the different commentary that was out there about it and just feeling almost like he couldn't sway public opinion.
[00:14:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. First off, thank you for inviting me.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: Thank you for being here.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: I think that the atmosphere when I got involved in trying to gain access to Jassy, which is what you need to do when you're making a documentary about a case like this, you need access to the main man as Jussie was that he was incredibly skeptical. He wasn't excited at all. I mean, he pretty much been crucified by the world's media.
Everybody was saying he was guilty.
So, you know, he. His position really was, no, I don't want to be involved. You know, I don't want to speak.
He'd been told not to speak as well, so he was very. He was silenced.
And so trying to get access to somebody like that who's very vulnerable at this point, because I didn't get involved actually until sort of around 20, 22.
So by this point, he's really been put through the ringer. You know, he's. He's. Everybody says he's a liar from. From the US all the way through around the world, so.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: And even the comedians, you know, making him a punchline.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it was absolutely. It was. It was horrific. And how I managed to gain the access in the end was it took a process of many, many months of, at first, speaking to his brother and sister.
I remember having a very uncomfortable zoom with them where they presented themselves with so much dignity and they were so attractive as human beings and they had so much strength. And I hadn't really done my research properly, I have to be honest.
I didn't know anything beyond the headlines. So I thought, like the rest of the world, he's guilty. That is what I thought at the beginning.
You know, I didn't know anything about Chicago. I knew nothing about the Chicago Police Department. I had no background whatsoever other than being a documentary maker in the UK and what I'd read in the headlines.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: So why. Why. Why this. Why this story for you?
[00:16:51] Speaker C: It was an enormous story.
And so, you know, everybody was writing about it, everybody was talking about it. The coverage was relentless. And like, in America, it sp. The uk. So as Somebody who is interested in big stories and we pitch them to channels and broadcasters and streamers. This was an obvious one. So it was my job more than anything else. I'd not heard of Jussie Smollett at first. I'd never seen the show Empire. I had no real interest other than it's my job to look into these things.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: Now, how did you. Now I'm going to bring back on both Shelley and Jared. Hey, Jared Hill, welcome to now. Thank you for joining us. Where are you joining us from? I know you're somewhere else on another time zone.
Oh, wait, I think you're muted right now. We got. Did you. Did you mute yourself?
[00:17:40] Speaker D: I'm on sabbatical, moving around Europe right now.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: That sound good?
[00:17:45] Speaker D: Listen, we can get into that another day.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Well, thank you. Thank you for interrupting the sabbatical to talk with us.
So how did you. How did you get involved with becoming, like, a consultant on this documentary?
[00:17:58] Speaker D: Yeah. So what's interesting with the distinctions here between Shelly and Abigail and myself is Shelly came in already, like, I see some bullshit here and I'm gonna find it. Abigail came in like, I think he's guilty. And then her position shift. But then I came in really unsure what to think. One of my first days on the air at the radio station that I worked on was covering this wall to wall, right? Covering this story because it was a big story. I was on a queer radio station, which gave us the space to be able to talk about it in that kind of way.
And it was one of the stories where many of us were like, I don't know what happened, but I know something happened right here.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:35] Speaker D: Exactly right. And so we were able to kind of assess the story and have conversations about it. And over the years, I did a podcast for a number of years with Treville Anderson called Fantai, where we did multiple episodes on this, talking about, like, I don't know what happened, but something about what we're being told doesn't make sense. And as I say in the doc, and I've said many times before, if I'm going to be asked whether I believe the Chicago Police Department or somebody that I kind of almost, but sort of adjacently know, I'm gonna go with Jussie every time.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:19:08] Speaker D: And so the Chicago Police Department, that whole, the whole apparatus that was there really, they, they. The way they told the story didn't really hit for me.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: I want to ask you, I want to ask you if you see a correlation or a connection right now with the ways in which black queer folks are treated in this with also now the recent arrest and with Lil Nas and facing some harsh charges right now.
[00:19:38] Speaker C: Do you.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: Do you. I from. I see the response online seems to be people feel this disproportionate sort of justice reaction when it comes to black bodies.
[00:19:51] Speaker D: Absolutely. I think that when we think about Jussie Smollett story, and I'd love that you make this connection with Lil Nas X, it's a lot easier for people to be jovial and laughing and freewheeling about the story. Right. We've seen plenty of comics, Dave Chappelle included, who have made, you know, whole. Whole long media moments around the way that they talk about these cases.
And at the same time, we see, you know, black straight men or black straight folks or CIS het folks that get handled in a very different way. Right. Where I feel like community and the media and, you know, the population, baby.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: When it comes to Chris Brown, when it comes to Chris Brown, I'm seeing reels where people like, oh, you know, it was a pass, and people do this and people do that. When it comes to Jonathan Majors, oh, well, you know, you know, people did. And when it comes to Snoop Dogg, oh, well, you. I mean, everybody gets rolled back into the community except for black women and queer folks.
[00:20:45] Speaker D: Yes. No, absolutely. There's a. There is a less of a.
There's less of an inclination to believe people that when we're queer or trans or women. Right. But also there is an inclination to kind of believe whatever is told about these kinds of stories. And so when we look at the Chicago Police Department, as Shelley was talking about, they come out and they give us all this information on what they believe happened, what they are assessing happened, and telling us also that they don't have evidence at the same time. Right. They're giving us, like, conflicting messages, but they give us this full oration on what they believe happened, how they. How they saw it happen, what their motives were, all these different things. And no one's. No one's been able to corroborate any of that at the time. So when we saw that.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: So I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that evidence.
[00:21:35] Speaker D: Let's get into that.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Let's. Let's get into the evidence, because that's really what. That's really what it comes down to was, where's the evidence? And once I saw, first of all, the thing that got me right away when I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. When I saw that video jump 10 seconds, I thought, this was Mission Impossible or Minority Report or so I thought we were in some sort of movie. It was like 10 seconds, just jump. And is missing the account of the security guard who was talking about the fact that he saw someone. All these different things. So that was the thing that did it for me. But I want to go down the list. So.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Yeah. What was so funny about that, though, is.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: It says in the police report, the guard with the flashlight run. You know, the. They run by a guard with a flashlight, and then the guard with the flashlight is gone.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Never in it. Yes.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: There's no flashlight in that video. So it's like you. You know that it was there.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Oh, wait. So I don't. I didn't know. Was that mentioned in the film? That. In the.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: No. So there's a lot of things that were not mentioned in the documentary that we wanted.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Can you highlight. Yeah, please, please, can you highlight.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: Get rid of some of the remaining confusion? Because it's. Everything they said is smoke and mirrors. There's no evidence for anything they said that's going to stand. You know, it's very easy to debunk every single thing that's still confusing people with the evidence.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: So.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So, I mean, we could just like. Let's.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Let's go down the list. Let's go down the list. So, first of all, let's talk about these Nigerian brothers, The. The Osundaro brothers. They. First of all, they say the DNA wasn't even on the road right now.
Talk to me a little bit about, like, this specific aspect, because I think this is important, because there's nothing, as far as what I've been seeing from this documentary that actually connects them to that scene.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Exactly. The DNA. So their DNA is not on the rope.
There is Jesse's DNA on the rope and some unknown man's DNA. Nobody has ever tested to see who that man is. So that still could be done at any time.
So, you know what I mean? There's somebody else's DNA on there that nobody's ever thought to test. The. The lawyers did not share that DNA evidence at trial. So a lot of people don't understand that. A lot of the evidence in the documentary was not shared at trial. People think, like, for example, Rebecca Bell didn't testify at the trial. They didn't.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? How Are we talking about the neighborhood?
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Yes. Yes.
[00:24:29] Speaker A: So there was a neighbor that walked her dog and said that she saw a white man and a white rope.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:24:37] Speaker C: A rope is hanging out of his pocket, which you know, is a little bit suspicious and very specific, isn't it, considering the weapon is a rope. So it's certainly something to pay attention to.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Yeah. So, yeah. Just understand the trial was not the best defense. And to put it mildly, they didn't use exculpatory DNA evidence to show that he was telling the truth. They didn't use witnesses, they didn't use videos. So that's a whole nother matter that they didn't get into in the documentary that we've, you know, talked with them about several times. But just for people to understand, he didn't get a strong defense at his trial. So when you see the jury convict him, that's why they didn't know about all the things that just came out in the documentary, except.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: So they didn't know about these. They. His defense team did not know about that.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: The defense team didn't use it. They could have used it.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: So I. The reason why I'm pausing there for a second is because I think there's always an assumption of people with money having the best defense teams.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: And it just seems like Jussie didn't have the best defense team to, like, grab at what was actually there to be able to open up that. Because really, again, all what their job was was beyond a reasonable doubt.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And so he. Yeah, I think his experience and how his defense behaved was like, a lot of people get that type of defense where you're not getting a, you know, a strong defense, they're not showing all the evidence. It's not what you would need to show that the jury. That you're innocent. He didn't get that. Despite how much money he may have paid. He was tr. He got the defense of someone who got no defense, basically, in my opinion.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: So. So we got. So. So we're starting off with the fact that there is no DNA, their DNA is not on the rope.
But also that the Chicago PD chief spokesperson publicly said that the. The brothers made a deal with the Chicago Police, even though they were trying to make it seem like they did not. What was. Because. Why is that so significant? This. This part? Because I think that people don't understand how malleable people become when this PD or any other folks have you in a situation.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I could just speak to that quickly. And we also have a video. But there's, you know, in the documentary, they left it open. Like, we're saying they made a deal. They're saying they didn't make a deal.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: There was a line.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: They didn't make a deal. But actually they, you know, let's. We'll show it here. But the chief spokesman of the Chicago Police Department, who is the one who can officially speak for them publicly, said that they made a deal. And he explained that they threatened them, they lied to them, then they threatened them, and then they brokered a deal. So.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: And then they lied with the specific fact that they tried to say that Jussie ID them, right?
And there was a little bit of a gray area in them saying that because he, I. He said he thought the people on the video were the attackers.
[00:27:51] Speaker D: So this is an important piece that I think is a little bit murky for people because Jussie has shown the video of two dark figures. And when I say dark, I mean, like, they're wearing black. They have on hoods, they have on masks that are all black, right? They're shadowy. We can't really see their faces until the one video where we can see the top of one man's face. And so he sees those two people walking down the street and says, yes, that's them. And the police then take that identification, right, and show that to the brothers and say, he's identified you all. But I think that does bring us to another piece of evidence that's really, really important here, which is the video where you can see the top of one man's head, right? At the end of the documentary. They play that video for multiple people and get everyone's different feedback.
Multiple people's different feedback. Not everyone's, but they. They ask people like, oh, do you see a white man or a black man? And I think there's a. There's something a little bit unfair in that characterization of a question, right? Because I know for myself, when I was showing the video, I was like, I don't know if this is a white man, but it's certainly a pale skinned person or a light skinned person.
And so when you ask people like, is this person black or white? I'm black and the Osundero brothers are black, right? And we show up very differently.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: That was very misleading because they could have actually asked a very direct question because those boys show up very dark skinned. It's like, does this look like a dark skinned black man to you? No, it does not.
[00:29:11] Speaker D: Right? And like, which one of the Osundero brothers do you believe that is in this video? Which is a different conversation, right? So, Shelly, can you tell if they're black or white? That's a different thing.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: Shelly, can you tell me what are we about to see in this video here.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So we're about to see the chief spokesman of the Chicago Police Department publicly state that the brothers brokered a deal.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Good Morning America. That actually made the difference. He says the men in the surveillance.
[00:29:37] Speaker D: Images were his attackers. I don't have any doubt in my mind that that's them.
[00:29:46] Speaker A: Never did.
[00:29:48] Speaker D: For me when that was released, I was like, okay, we're getting somewhere.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: So we shared that with, with the two brothers and said, just been ID'd. He knows who you are. We're going to move forward with hate crime charge.
Oh, so again, this. They basically misused this information to mislead them to thinking that they had been ID'd.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: So, yeah, the end of that sentence was just, we're gonna move forward with hate crime charges. And then he says, and that's when they decided to broker a deal.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: And. And that's very, very critical. That last sentence that's been missed out of that clip we just played.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Because the, the next sentence out of his mouth is, and that's when they decided to broker a deal. So the, the Orson Dara brothers must have been terrified because they're in that situation. They're being interrogated by the Chicago Police Department.
They've been told, we're going to move forward and charge you with hate crime charges.
We're going to move forward and charge you. And that's when they decide to broker a deal. So it's important to understand the Osundero brothers are in a very, very tough spot right now. They've been put under a lot of pressure. They've been held for, is it 47 hours? You know, they're there, they've had their phones taken away from them. They're in a complete media blackout, and they only know what they're being told by the detectives within the Chicago Police Department. So they must have been terrified, frankly, when they're told at this point, they, you've been id'd by the victim.
They don't know what's happened. They probably thought, Jesse's thrown. Thrown them under the bus. You know, what, what's.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: What's going on right now. Now, if he, if this dude is going to throw me under the bus, I guess we better, you know, I guess it's a fight.
Yes.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: Themselves. Because it's a case of, look, you know, you've just been id'd, we're going to charge you now with a very serious offense.
And. And that's when they decided to broker a deal. And that's when we get into the meat.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: A bit of what?
[00:31:42] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead, Jerry.
[00:31:43] Speaker D: In addition to that, the police also have the leverage of having broken into their home or raided their house, finding guns and drugs and all kinds of things that they're not allowed to have because of the conviction that we talk about in the documentary. Right. And so there's all of these different pieces coming together. The 47th hour of a 48 hour hold, the Jussie video saying, like, he's IDing these people on camera, them being in this. In this hold where they're not being able to see anything, they're not being able to get any kind of information, all of those things come together for them to then make a deal with this new lawyer that they've been introduced in the time that they've been in this hole.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: So. So for me, these are all. These were nails in the coffin for me.
But it says also that a surveillance video shows the exact suspects that Anthony. Anthony Moore and Jussie described now.
And Rebecca Bell. So wait, so Rebecca Bell, which one was that? Oh, she was the neighbor. So she was a neighbor. And then Anthony Moore was a security guard.
And so is it typical police business to do a lineup when you say that I see a white man. And to show you all black men is to say, well, if you had.
[00:33:03] Speaker D: To pick one now, the word you use, typical.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: I think that might be typical, though, with these.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: Maybe in Chicago.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe in Chicago, exactly. But why do you think. Why is it. Why do you think that there was so much hubris with the Chicago pd? Why do you think that they were able to come out thinking that they were slam dunking it?
I mean, there's such a confidence in.
[00:33:37] Speaker D: Well, I think we also.
One of the important pieces of context that often gets left out of this conversation about the Jussie Smollett case is the Laquan McDonald case that immediately preceded it, right?
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:49] Speaker D: Where Laquan McDonald was shot 16 times. The narrative for, I believe it was a year. The narrative in the public was he was charging toward us. We had to shoot him to save ourselves. Right. I believe it was a year after that that incident happened. Then the video comes out and we see Laquan is moving away from them. They're shooting him in the back, and while he's dead on the ground. 16 shots, right. There's a podcast called 16 Shots that really unpacks that. But that case comes to a close years later where the officer is sentenced to six and a half years. I believe it was. Shelly, correct me if I'm Wrong. But also the other officers are then exonerated. They get off. Right. But in the course of that case, we've seen repeated various moments where they have acted in corrupt ways. Right. They have tampered with evidence, they've hidden evidence, they've covered up various different kinds of things. There's a black eye on the Chicago Police Department from this case alone, but that doesn't even consider the hundred years of corruption that has preceded it. Right. And so as we see this moment happening, the Chicago Police Department is trying to, one, clean up their image, but also they're also using their same old tools that they've been using. And even the same old detectives and officers who were part of that case.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: That is the other thing. So there were.
There were detectives and officers who had a history of. Of nefariousness. Corrective work.
[00:35:15] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So I can just list off some of the things because I just put a few in the documentary. So homophobic slurs, racist hate speech, violently trying to force an innocent man to confess to a crime he didn't commit, shooting an innocent man and then trying to frame him, kicking an innocent man for several minutes, causing him severe spinal injuries, then trying to frame him, domestic incidents, DUIs, criminal sexual assault, false arrests, and sale and possession of drugs. And sued for the COVID up of Laquan McDonald's murder. One of the detectives on this case was sued for trying to cover up Laquan McDonald's murder. He's actually. His name is Richard Hagan. He was the officer sitting at the Burger King console when the video disappeared. And the Burger King supervisor said that he believes they erased it. That officer was then sued. The city paid out, and then they assigned him to Jussie's case. And he's the officer who is a tech guy for CPD looking into the videos, finding videos or not finding videos.
So a huge story in itself that wasn't in the documentary. But, you know, these officers were not the cream of any sort of crop. These were the problem officers in CPD who have. They know that they have bad backgrounds and then assign them en masse to this case.
[00:36:45] Speaker D: And Shelley, I believe, if I remember correctly, Angelica, the. This is the same officer who then comes up with the video of the brothers in the store buying the red hat. Right, right.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Because I think that. I think that's an important point to point out. I want to. I want to talk about that video because for some folks, that was a smoking gun. For some folks. Some folks were like, oh, I hear on the Internet, oh, well, what about those you we saw on the video. The brothers were buying the rope on the video.
Is there a time. Like, are there. I don't know, were there timestamps with this? Like, were there not timestamps on the video?
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah, there weren't timestamps on the video. And also, again, it's like Jared just said, that's Richard Hagan's work, the video. And then we also have to be very clear that nobody reported that there was a red hat at the scene. That was a social media rumor that took on a life of its own. Jesse specifically gave a very specific description. No red hat was mentioned. The both witnesses gave very specific descriptions. No red hat. So NCPD's own reports, no red hat. And Jesse tried to clear it up several times. Like you can see in CPD's reports. He's telling them, I never said anything about a red hat. They're writing this in the report. He said it on the Good Morning America interview. I never said they were wearing red hats.
So cpd, instead of looking at their own reports and thinking about this, what is this evidence? They instead put forth evidence of two black men buying red hats and say that that's some sort of smoking gun, when really it's. To me, they're incompetent.
Planting of evidence. You know, they bungled the planting of evidence and put in evidence that nobody even said was in this case in the first place. So the brothers buying a gun is. Or buying a. A red hat means nothing for this case. It should have been debunked at trial. And the public just has to realize it means nothing. It's not evidence they're being manipulated.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: The public needs to realize that they've been. They've been manipulated. And we're being manipulated with this whole story and thinking that they were being manipulated by Jussie.
Can I.
[00:39:00] Speaker D: Can I just touch on that point? Because this weekend I've been way more tapped into the social media of this than I should have been. Right. Like, seeing how people are talking about it. Because over the years, if you type in Jussie Smollett on Twitter, Jussie Smollett is an adverb for liar, for cheater, for hoaxer. Like. Right. It's become a thing for quite a while, but I was trying to see if the conversation was changing. And there was some other story that came out of Chicago this week where someone was talking about MAGA in Chicago. And, like, there's all these comments about Jussie and red hats and. And all that kind of thing. Well, Jussie said red hats. Red hats. Red hats. Red hats. And like, that conversation is still happening online. Right. Even to this day, when that started on social media. It's never been a part of this case. It's never been a part of the story of what actually happened, but it is still part of the narrative that people are discussing even to this day.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: That is. And, and, and to me also, I, I, I was unclear about which cop or I just, I, I saw in the documentary, they said that a cop was either drunk or was something. It was like admitting to lying in the case.
What, can you, can you explain that a little bit more? Because I was really confused about that part.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Does anyone, I mean, that was Eddie Johnson, the superintendent of police. So he was, that wasn't the man.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: The black man that was on the.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: Exactly him. Yeah.
[00:40:26] Speaker D: That'S a reasonable response, a reasonable reaction. Angelica.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Y Not that he was on the documentary talking all that mess.
[00:40:34] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: To be out here like he's some sort of credible character. I mean, after that too, he was sued for because he was out drinking that night with a subordinate officer while he's married. She later sued him for sexual assault and rape.
Then after that he's been fired at this point, then his wife has to call the police and say that he's battering her. And she told them it was the fourth time and he had run away before the police got there because he didn't want them to find him.
And so, but before he ran away, he was trying to set her underwear on fire on a bed. You know what I mean? Like, what kind of person is this? So that all was not shown in the documentary, but it goes to his credibility and his character, you know, slightly.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: I am gagging over here. I'm gagging because watching that, he was like, just the nerve of this dude, you know, talking about Jussie, like on all this thing. And it's just every accusation ended up being a confession.
And, and so what, what really got me too was Lori Lightfoot on camera. And they're asking her, like, what was the lie? And she's like, does it matter?
Yes, yes, I think it does matter. What was the lie, girl?
[00:42:03] Speaker C: Yeah, But I just want to make a point here that to me came across well in the documentary and also is worth probably saying, which is it's not a crime to be hungry at 2 in the morning and go and get a sandwich.
It is not a crime to say to police when they come into your home, please turn off the video camera. It is Not a crime to not hand over your phone because you are entitled to a private life.
And these are all things that Eddie Johnson and the Chicago Police Department plant very early on.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:39] Speaker C: Doubt. They deliberately so. Doubt.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: And to all you homos out there doubting, I don't know, a lot of y' all then went out and below zero weather, not for some food, but some other things. So I don't, I don't wanna. I don't listen, I don't want to hear it.
[00:42:57] Speaker D: I need you to mind your business.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: I listen, I don't want to hear it because I know y' all going out in the freezing cold to snuggle up to something. So don't talk about Jussie going for some subway because I know that back in the day, too. I'm from Chicago and I know that's stuff shuts down, you really don't want to be outside.
But when you need what you need, people do go. You're. And you're in Chicago, you're used to that kind of weather. People be moving around in that kind of weather. So it's not unheard of that they would go out.
[00:43:27] Speaker D: Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Go ahead.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: No, I was going to say, you know, there's a reason why subway's open 24 hours. There's a reason why there were four other people there. You know, Jesse, you. You should start from the point that you are innocent until proven guilty.
It is the Chicago Police Department's job to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. And all they've got is doubt, and all they've got is Merc. But actually, in the end, if they had any evidence, they would have shown you the evidence.
They had no evidence whatsoever to tie the Osundero brothers to the crime. Whereas on the other side, what Shelley uncovered from their own records was surveillance footage, eyewitnesses, and forensic evidence that shows that there was a white man at the scene, or at least a pale skinned man at the scene, corroborating entirely what Jussie Smollett claimed happened to him that night. So we are not looking at two conflicting narratives that should be given equal weight. Yeah, we're looking at one narrative that has all the evidence.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Well, that's. That's the bone I have to pick with this situation. I must say this. That's the bone I got to pick. I don't know if that was on you, Abigail girl. I don't know who this was on, but I felt like I was watching a suspense I didn't like. I And this was somebody's life. And I'm sitting here watching, and I'm like. And I know, Jussie. And I know that, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna watch the documentary, whatever. And I'm like, wait, what's. I'm on the edge of my seat because I'm like, wait, how. How is this going to go? So I think the. To the average viewer, there are a lot of people out there who are still on the fence or are still thinking, well, he lied about something.
[00:45:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
Sorry, Jared.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: Go ahead, Jared.
[00:45:18] Speaker D: Well, I think in this case is a.
Abigail and I have had conversations around this, around the way that the documentary presents false balance. I think we think about false balance a lot in the United States when we think about the coverage of Donald Trump. Quite a bit, actually. Right.
As a person who's been in media and journalism in the United States for quite a while, we see on cable news and in various other places where we're on talking about something that Donald Trump has done, whether we're talking first administration, first election, second election, second administration, right? And there's always some other person on the other side who is giving the other perspective, as if it is a valid, equal kind of footing of a conversation, right? If we're talking about white supremacy, there's someone else coming on. Well, it's not racist. If we're talking about the way that it's going to harm communities, it's like, oh, well, no, it's not.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: Right?
[00:46:06] Speaker D: As if, like, facts and data don't support what the person is saying. As if we don't know the way that these kinds of things tend to harm communities. And so we'll have another person that comes on and says, nuh. Essentially, as Eddie Johnson does in the documentary. Right? Eddie Johnson comes on after Shelly and Abigail lay out all of this evidence that was included in the documentary. And he's like, oh, I hate when people come in with these silly conspiracy theories or these other perspectives. And it's like, that is not a rebuttal. Right. Like, I spent six years in speech and debate, I can tell you that is not a rebuttal. Right. And so it is a frustrating thing to continue to see in the documentary. They do what we would call in reality television, like a roller coaster of doubt. Right? They make you believe something is absolutely true and then they knock it down with something. We're like, oh, well, then that other thing has to be true. And then they bring it back and they bring it back and forth. And that roller Coaster keeps you going.
And you know, the director of the film has said that he wanted people to be left unsure, which feels irresponsible to me.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: That feels very irresponsible to me. Yeah.
But I think that shows a prioritization of entertainment over facts, you know?
[00:47:11] Speaker B: Exactly. And that was not in any way Abigail's doing. She was. We none of us had any sort of editorial control, so that was taken away early on, of course. So the director made that decision. Decision and publicly stated, you know what Jared just said that he wanted to leave people unsure. So there's evidence for every point that the public's still confused about that they left out. So there was no need to leave people unsure. Like the tracking of the brothers. They don't have that like they're saying they do. They absolutely did not track them home. The Uber receipt. On the way there, they had already laid out in an email the narrative that they had tracked them home before they even subpoenaed Uber.
Okay. They were already outside their home before they subpoenaed Uber, looking for evidence to really misconduct laden accusation. Cops were doing that. They also said in there that they had no idea who the brothers were before they got the Uber receipt. Not true.
I have a document there that you could show or not. But basically it's the note. Yes. So if you, you see at the bottom there, they say personal trainer.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: And it's. And it's blacked out. So this is a. The first day, later in the day on the 29th of January, they're talking to Jesse. This is a handwritten, original police report.
They write right at the bottom, personal trainer. And that's, you know, because Jesse was getting trained from him. He was supposed to meet with him. So he's telling the police this. They do. They write his name on the police report and then tell us in the documentary that they had no idea who these brothers were. You know, so it's like everything they're saying, there's evidence, hard evidence from their own reports to show lie, lie, lie, lie. So even just that alone, look at this. They're lying. You know what I mean?
[00:49:07] Speaker A: And what, what are we looking at here? What is.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is something I just want to point out because I've seen some people online saying that it. Why is it so bright? The camera's messing with the skin tone. So this is what was going on there. There's a Hyatt hotel. This is a covered walkway over the street. If you go to the next one, the walkway with lights. This is what it looks like under that walkway. So see on the right side, this is where the guy was walking. See how many lights there are there? Yes, so many lights. More than you would have in a home. You know, you're not going to have 12 lights in that part of the area of a home. Exactly where all those lights are. That's where he was walking.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: Right. So that's why we get a different exposure.
[00:49:52] Speaker B: Exactly. So then the cameras are on this other side. Like you can see a camera right at the top, on the left. That's the camera looking under.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: You sure can't see it.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: Yes, at the light. So that's why it's bright, that's why it's in color. That's why you can see his skin tone.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: And that is why we need investigative journalists.
[00:50:12] Speaker B: Yes, we do. They stopped funding them a long time ago, though.
[00:50:15] Speaker A: So can we talk about. Because that's one thing I want to talk about now is, you know, I have myself have been enamored with several riveting documentaries, you know, and that, you know, and it's great that we get documentaries that have. Take the time to break things down. You know, one of my favorite documentaries out there is Israelism, you know, that basically is a documentary that breaks down Zionism for people and just the dis, the, the, this, this whole situation separating Jewish faith from Zionism and what's happening there and understanding how Netanyahu has created the situation.
These type of documentaries can change people's hearts and minds and really like seal the deal for folks. But in the meantime, we have breaking news.
In the meantime, we have compromised media sites and things like that.
In the meantime, we have social media influencers with a Canva subscription, you know, that can put breaking news without having a lot of work being done to verify the information. Can you talk about the current landscape of journalism as coming from your point of view and can this be turned around?
[00:51:39] Speaker D: I'll start there because I think it's one of the things that actually speaks to the point that you're making is like, this is not the first Jussie Smollett documentary.
It's not even the second Jussie Smollett documentary.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:51] Speaker D: This is the third Jussie Smollett documentary that's come out. Fox Nation did a documentary on this. CNN did an hour long documentary on this and they didn't talk about any of this.
Right.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:52:01] Speaker D: And so when you look at the ways that stories are getting told, the Fox Nation documentary, like their big get was having the Osundero brothers In their documentary, Right. They don't talk to Jesse, but they do talk to many different people, but they're not looking at the evidence in the same kind of way. They have a narrative that they're interested in pushing forward. And so they do that. Right. And so I think that when we talk about the importance of documentaries like this and investigative journalism like Shelley's, it's important that we recognize that every time you're being told a story, it is being told from a perspective.
Right. It is being told for a reason. They are here to tell you something. Right. And I think about this beyond the way we think about media, especially in this time that we're in, in the United States. I think about this a lot with history, Right.
The way that history is being edited, the way that things are being taken out of history or distorted in history or removed from museums or re. Erected on the sidewalks with statues and things like that. Right. These kinds of things are done for a reason.
They are done from a perspective, for a purpose. So I think it's important to always remember that.
[00:53:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And it makes Shelley's work even more important, even more critical at a time like this, in a post truth world, to actually hang on to facts, hang on to evidence, no matter what your politics, hang on to facts. Because in this particular case, there is evidence, a lot of evidence.
So that's the thing that. That's the thing that sees us through.
We don't need to make a film that sows doubt. We can actually answer the question posed in the documentary because we have surveillance footage, because we have Anthony Moore, one of the most credible eyewitnesses you can have. He's a security guard. He monitors things for a living.
And there's a thing about Anthony Moore that I did want to say. I think he's a very brave man, Anthony Moore, because he is threatened and pressured to change his story. And he maintains that. That he saw a white man. And I think it's also important to say when Anthony Moore leaves the building that night, he turns to his left with his flashlight and he shines the light directly in the face of one of the attackers. And he shines the light within one or two feet.
So he's very, very close to the attacker. He gets a very good look. He's not shining a light through glass. He's very clear about what he.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Well, the fact that you're saying all of this points to the fact that black people, no matter what title you may be hold or be given, when it comes to the system, your Authority is in question because you, I think about Brie Newsom who took down the Confederate flag and a white man in a, in a construction vest is standing around and is literally being assumed to be the authority and the person who knows what's what and is controlling the things. So she was able to get do as much as she was because at first people thought it was like an official situation happening.
You are hired into these positions. Again we're supposed to trust Chicago PD and again all these around security and these things. But you're hired into a position to do this job and surveil and be security and obviously you're supposed to have the qualifications to do that job. So then when you go to that person to interview, because that's the person you want to go to, because not the random person, but the person who's been trained in this situation to look for X, Y and Z. And now you're saying, are you sure?
[00:55:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And I can, I can quote you from the police email that I have gotten through foia. So this is Edward Wanicki who was also fired after this case for misconduct.
He says in here we tracked down, he's sending it to all the police officers and the high ups on February 1st. This attack happened on January 29th, the day, the morning after they interview Anthony Moore. He says we tracked down a secure a Sheraton security guard who is an eyewitness immediately after the attack.
For most of you that saw the video, he is the guy with the flashlight statement attached for your review.
Keep in mind when reading this that he is a near minimum wage hotel security guard on midnights who by happenstance walked past two guys running in the opposite direction in a dark, relatively unlit area at 2000, at 2 at night. No offense to security guards everywhere.
Respect.
My first part time job as a young PO was as a security guard at a hotel on midnights. It sucked. I lasted there about a month. I did get a date from the hot front desk.
Hot front desk manager though, so it wasn't a total loss.
So this is how they wrote about him internally. After this guard comes forward, they're asking for witnesses, they're asking for the public come forward. The guy comes forward and that's how they write about him internally, immediately after he gives his statement. So yeah, I mean that's just as bad as it could be. You know, from what you're saying, like this guy is a, you know.
[00:57:27] Speaker D: Well, so two things here. One, I want to reiterate this is not the first Jussie documentary And it's not the second. But neither one of those documentaries talked to Rebecca Bell or Anthony Moore.
[00:57:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:57:39] Speaker D: The witnesses who are in the police filings as witnesses. But additionally, Shelly can speak about this better than I can. But, like, right after this happens, right after the attack happens, the police are on their police blogs talking about this case. Shelly, can you talk a little bit about the ways in which they were kind of already forming the narrative about what they believed in the 1, 2, 3, 4 days following the attack?
[00:58:06] Speaker A: You're on mute again, Shelly.
[00:58:11] Speaker D: You're muted. Shelly, we can't hear you. Okay, well, I know that she's trying to. It seems like she's trying to get it, but, like, in the police blogs, they are talking about Jussie and this case. They're using homophobic language. Go ahead, Shelley.
[00:58:26] Speaker B: Yeah, sorry about that. I thought I was unmuted. So basically I, you know, I have this database of evidence, and so I'm just trying to pull it up. So basically, there was this blog in Chicago called Second City Cop, and it's like anonymous police officers writing crazy things. And it was. They say, you know, that it was really a must read for local journalists and decision makers in Chicago. So they were basically writing about this case very early on, and they were saying things like putting up a picture of a Loch Ness monster and saying, you know, this attack did not happen. Look, this is of the suspect that we found.
They were making fun of him and saying that this was a Grinder date gone bad.
[00:59:14] Speaker C: Yeah, they said, unfucking believable. I mean, they, you know, they're really flagrant. They're really clear about this. There are elements within Chicago Police Department that, from the beginning, think the whole thing's a joke. Think he's making it up. It's a Grinder date gone bad and taking, you know, just, Just the whole thing. They don't. They don't believe him. From the beginning, from the get go.
[00:59:35] Speaker B: And, you know, it's funny to me because I feel like a lot of the jokes that were later made or eating of the jokes were coming from this. So this is like one thing that they wrote. Like, let me look at the date. Here it is on the.
Sorry, I can't really see y'. All.
[00:59:54] Speaker A: Oh, Jesse. An apology. Yes.
[00:59:56] Speaker B: On the 31st, the. The anonymous police officers in Chicago are writing. So on the second coldest night of the year, a Hollywood actor bundled up against negative 20 degrees windshield.
[01:00:07] Speaker A: Hollywood actor. That's. They use that as a pejorative, but go ahead.
[01:00:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: Yes. Was recognized by two fans in the dead of, you know, 202 in the morning on Lower Water street in a known hangout for the seedy underbelly of MAGA supporters who happened to be carrying a canister of bleach and a piece of string just in case they ran across a black gay Hollywood actor wrapped up against the elements in a place known more for homelessness than for the star being seen in public.
A lot of those little pieces in there were later the jokes, but I.
[01:00:47] Speaker A: Mean, obviously the subway was close.
[01:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, it's just like it walks around, I think. Yeah, but you know, just like the mat. Why would they know he was, you know, why would MAGA watch Empire? Why would the MAGA people be over there? Why was he out in that weather? Like all those jokes.
[01:01:07] Speaker A: Well, I think there's, I think there is something to also point out here for folks who don't understand, like coming from Chicago, stuff does happen in Chicago. But when a show like Empire comes to Chicago, you know that that show is filming in Chicago, like it becomes a city thing and it comes a piece of pride. You see the, the trucks and all of. Because it takes over the, the city at certain times, especially downtown, where they're filming in different places. So it's not unheard of that people would know something's going on, especially when they're staying in the area to film. Film.
[01:01:40] Speaker D: The important piece of that Shelley said that was January 31st. I will remind you, this attack happens on January 29th.
Right. So this is two days after the event happens, though. This is how they're talking about it. Right. They're already forming a narrative that this did not really happen, that they're not going to find this person, that it's a grinder day. Right. This is how the police officers are talking about.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: So they're not interested in the truth.
[01:02:03] Speaker D: They're just, they're not interested in finding what really happened.
[01:02:06] Speaker A: But this sounds like what happens when a woman calls. This sounds like what happens when a woman calls, has been assaulted. Like just meaning, like not being believed.
This immediate, like sighting of or blurring the narratives of all these different things. It's like now, now wonder this. I, I feel so badly for Jussie because this just seemed like a no win situation in the sense of either way you were going to experience. Experience hell in the.
[01:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And even, you know, the things people were saying, like, why was he out? That's exactly what they say to women, you know, why were you out at that time of night? Like, it was all Just this undertone of, like, super evil things that people just got permission to say suddenly, which we've, you know. So hopefully that will be all dialed back now, because we don't need that.
[01:02:58] Speaker A: I hope so. And I hope that just. I know now Jesse's gonna be done talking with this, because I'd be like, you watch the documentary. Figure it out for yourself. But I'm not k.
I don't care. And I know that he is now happily engaged to be married and, you know, has new music out and things like that and has things to look forward to. You know, we. We will. We. I appreciate you all for being in this because, you know, just like with allies, you know, when it comes to whether with immigration, with trans folks, with LGBTQ things, we often need folks who have the range to talk about, to bring common sense, to talk facts when we are so burdened at times, to be in the defensive all the time, to defend our very need to exist in these spaces. So I really appreciate the way each of your voices came to this project. So thank you for showing up for this.
[01:03:53] Speaker D: Absolutely. Thank you for having us here to kind of unpack these things. I think it's important for people to hear these various other perspectives, these other pieces that are really important that aren't a part of the documentary. So thank you for the work you're doing.
[01:04:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. I am going to close it here only because I feel like I'm about to pass out because I, like, I'm literally just off a plane and doing all these things. I got to eat and I'm now dizzy. But I had to have this conversation and have. Get. Get down to these facts. Thank you so much. Jared Hill. Thank you so much. Shelly Stanley. Thank you so much. Abigail Carr.
If you have not watched the Truth about Jussie Smollett, you need to watch it. Decide for yourself. But if you don't see these facts and come to the conclusions that we've come to, then all I can say is good luck in this current fascist environment, because the things that are being presented to you aren't always what they seem.
And we. We are going to need to. We are needing journalists more than ever right now. That is what. Why there is an attack on journalism both abroad and at home. Because once you see, once you know, you can't unknow.
So with that, thank you very much, everybody. I'm going to call it out here. I'm not even going to do my old outro because I'm gonna go lay down and we will talk with you all next week. Thank you all for joining me. I guess the conversation will cons will continue. Have a great week. Enjoy your sabbatical. Talk to you all soon. No opportunity wasted.
[01:05:20] Speaker C: Bye.
[01:05:22] Speaker A: All right, hit.
