Captain Zero: Turning Pain into Power ✨

[00:00:10] Speaker A: All right, welcome back to now, no Opportunity Wasted. I am your host, Angelica Ross. It is Monday, August 11, so I have to say happy birthday to my cousin Tasha Canada, one of my favorite cousins in the entire world. Girl, happy birthday. Congratulations on that beautiful family you got over there. Hey, Cam. Hey, Lexi. Hey, Kevin. Treat my girl right. All right, welcome back to now, no Opportunity Wasted. I'm your host, Angelica Ross. And we, we, ladies and gentlemen, have a very exciting show planned for you today. As you know, around here, pride never ends. And so we're going beyond pride with my conversation with Z, who is a brilliant black non binary creator of the animated short film Captain Zero into the Abyss, which I had the pleasure of executive producing and voicing two of the amazing characters. I get to play both Xerces therapist, and he's hiding that he's a superhero from her. And I also get to voice Captain Z when he's his hero. I get to voice his nemesis, Oblivion, and she is a hoot. Honey, I cannot wait to show you a special sneak peek at the end of this conversation. But before or after that as well, I will be joined by Aaron Lang to break down some. Break down some of the confusion around the feelings that some of us felt about Laverne Cox accountability conversation and why we felt that it should have been exclusively trans women only at that first conversation. And I wouldn't say maybe just only, but also I do think that, and we'll talk about this, that olay also, her voice would have definitely been valuable in that conversation as a black woman who dates CIS men. But we are going to unpack all of that and just talk about the differences and the nuances between being non binary, you know, non binary identities and trans identities and when inclusion becomes erasure. I have been one who have been adamant about, you know, teaching people about the umbrella term that is trans. Trans is an umbrella term, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything under the umbrella is exactly the same. They may be under the umbrella. Non binary is under the trans umbrella. But, but that's not the same thing as a trans woman or trans, you know, we, we got to get down into the nitty gritty. It's a little confusing, I know, but it looks like, I guess y' all ready for the 301 class, because y' all talk about trans people all the dang on time more than you talk about the price of groceries. So you must be ready for the 301 level course. So you don't want to miss that conversation. And as always, if you Want to hop on audio or camera and join this conversation? You are more than welcome, honey. You are more than welcome. You can text me. Matter of fact, let me get this number up on the screen real quick. You could text me, Hear me at 1-888-991-2946 for that live studio link. You know, if you want to get on and say something, have your voice be heard. But before we dig into all of that, I want to, as always, ground us with a word from Buddhism. Day by day, we wisdom for a modern life. And Today's quote for October 11th says, quote, One who has mastered himself is truly free. Freedom lies in the heart of the sage, servitude in the heart of the fool. Now, I want to be clear on that. They're not saying, like, you know, that it's foolish to be of service, right? But they're talking about the difference between a life of servitude, you know, almost indentured servitude, because, you know, America is really wanting us to go back to, back to slavery times. I mean, they've been doing it legally with the prison industrial complex. We all know that. But now with the criminalization of homelessness now, now with Trump basically declaring martial law in Washington, D.C. and vowing to just start with D.C. and move on to other cities like Oakland and Chicago, criminalizing homelessness, criminalizing being poor, we are going to have to understand that it's time to fight for our freedom. The fight against fascism is right here and right now. And, and this is not something we're going to be able to run away from or stick your head into the sand and wait for it to go over, to blow over. We are all going to have to find a way to take responsibility for this issue because it's our responsibility, the ability to respond. So if you've been quiet and silent this whole time, listen, I understand. But we going to need you to find your voice and we're going to need you to find that way that works for you to speak up on all the different things. You don't have to know everything. You can uplift other people's voice. Read a book. It's now it's time to start reading books, you know, reading books that people are recommending in the movement. I don't have one off the top of my head, but I know Reclaiming Our Spaces, Feminista Jones, the Purpose of Power, Alicia Garza. You know, there's some Palestine books by Mark Lamont Hill where he really clarifies the conflict that's going on with Palestine. So just tap in any way that you can, please, because we're going to need each and everybody to beat fascism, basically. All right, So I want to make sure that I make plenty of room towards the end of the conversation for, you know, me and Aaron Lane to really break things down. So I am going to go ahead and get this party started and get our interview going. Let me see. Let me. Wait, let me. Let me remove myself. Let's see. Y' all know, so I'm doing producer, too. I'm. I'm being producer live and putting all these things on the screen at the same time. So I'm going to go ahead and get this interview going. Video file. I'm gonna go to Z. And here we go with my conversation with Z. You know, and I hope I. You're gonna see, I'm gonna try to pronounce that a couple times in this interview. Here we go. Oh, Pride continues. Happy Pride. Thank you for joining me. Now, Z. Now Z. I. I want to say your last name, too, but you say it. I haven't got. I just think got it down quite yet with the. You know that French are the French art. So can you tell the people say your name? I did. I did. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Close. [00:07:43] Speaker A: I'm going practice. Thank you for joining me now. [00:07:46] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having me. [00:07:48] Speaker A: No opportunity wasted. I. I am so glad that I actually was able to make it here to New York. This is our first time actually meeting in person. Well, not this very moment, but this trip was our first time meeting in person. And I just have to say, first of all, thank you to Daniella, who told me that I could not miss this moment as somebody who's been one of your. On your team as an EP and voicing two of the characters. You know, when we've done this work, that's the best part is being there to, you know, experience the presentation of it all. But honestly, as a black trans woman, as a black creator, we know that these budgets be tight. You know what I'm saying? I know I didn't have it in my personal budget. I know we didn't have it in the budget to be doing all the things. I was just like, I'm a chill. I'm a chill at home and just, you know, celebrate. But she told me no. She was like, you need to be there. And so it is because of her that I was able to actually make this moment happen and be here and celebrate with you. So I'm glad that I could do that. [00:08:54] Speaker C: I'm so Glad we got that opportunity. Also. Thank you, Daniella, so much. I definitely want to take some time apart to tell you. Thank you individually, but no, like, having you there, being able to share and experience that moment with you. I mean, the fact that, like, I mean, outside of Keith, because I know he had obligations. He's the busiest man in the world. Next, like Kiki Palmer, like, they are always doing things. [00:09:13] Speaker A: He's talking about Keith David, because Keith David, the amazing actor, such a voice. When you hear his voice, you automatically know it. [00:09:23] Speaker C: So recognizable. [00:09:23] Speaker A: So that's why in voice animation, you know, it was such a blessing to have him. So. Okay, I want you to tell the people, though. I want you to tell the people. We're going to go back a little bit. We're going to rewind back a little bit, actually, even before me, before I came onto this project. Because you've been working on this story for a long time, a decade. [00:09:45] Speaker C: September 26th will make 10 years. [00:09:47] Speaker A: 10 years. Can you tell the people what inspired you to start with this story? [00:09:55] Speaker C: So the initial conception of Captain Zero really came from a depressive episode that I almost lost. I was. This was 2015. I had just moved to Orlando, had been living in Florida my entire life. Just moved to Orlando for college. I went to college at Full Sail University. This is maybe three months in. And I fell into one of the worst depressive episodes I'd had at the time. A year prior, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And again, there was no one in my immediate circle, no friends, no family members that even knew where to start the conversation about my mental health. Also growing up, like, being Caribbean, both my parents Haitian, it was like, you're sad. What is that? [00:10:35] Speaker B: Why? [00:10:36] Speaker C: I don't understand. So when I had that really, really bad depressive episode, it felt like it was just like a compounding things that were happening. It was moving away in this new place, venturing out, still trying to figure out who I am as a person. That was like the first time I got my nose pierced. There were just so many. All these new things that were happening. And a lot of it was just scary and challenging at the time. And I fell into a really, really bad depressive episode. And I remember I was like in my living room, I was bawling. I was like in the fetal position. And I remember when I got up off the ground, I remember to the table to the left of me, there was a stack of paper and a pencil. And then I remember in my bathroom, there were a bunch of razor blades because I Cut my own hair. And I remember thinking to myself in that moment, like, I have two options. It literally felt like a fork in the road. I could go down this path that's maybe something that's constructive, or I could go out of this other path, something that's destructive. And ultimately, the more I sat with myself and the things that I was feeling, I realized more than anything what I felt was. Was voiceless. I felt like again, there was just no one that understood me. And I wanted so desperately to be understood. So I decided to take, you know, the pencil and the paper and instead try to transmute what it was that I was feeling into something that could be tangible. So the initial conception of Captain Zero was really just supposed to be about my senior year in high school being diagnosed with major depressive disorder and navigating that as like, you know, a mask person. That was the basis of what the show was supposed to be about. But then throughout, like that night, again, I just started thinking about all of my other influences, things that I love, superheroes, comic books, all those kinds of things. And I was like, wait, what if I made this narrative about this superhero that was dealing with depression? Because that was something, again, I had never seen before. And I thought about what an interesting concept that would be. And then, yeah, within a few hours, I had drawn the very first image of Captain Zero. And I came up with that name, Captain Zero, because again, thought it would be such a great juxtaposition, like captain being this, you know, name of a high ranking military officer, but zero meaning nothing and nobody. So it's like you're the captain of the nothings of the nobodies. So that was, you know, where the initial conception of the show came about. [00:12:52] Speaker D: Wow. [00:12:53] Speaker A: Like, and that's incredible that you, I. I don't know what it was about you connecting depression and mental health and sort of the struggle that we've had as black people to be in environments that could help us understand and access these things. It just seems so wild that you revealed the weight that so many of us are under with black excellence. [00:13:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:29] Speaker A: You know, this. This thing that weighs us down that we're trying to live up to when we find out that black excellence is a scam because there's so much white mediocrity out there. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But so many times myself, you know, I come from a lineage of people who have done amazing things because they had to. Yeah, because they had to. But when you said there's a line that sticks out to Me in this whole series. You know what line I'm talking about? [00:14:01] Speaker C: Another line. [00:14:02] Speaker A: What's the line? [00:14:04] Speaker C: Who's going to save me when I need saving? [00:14:07] Speaker A: Who's going to save me when I need saving? Do you know, for some reason, I thought I had some unlimited supply of privilege because I was pretty. I thought it would. The pretty would take me to the bank or something. I don't know. But, like, I thought I had all this privilege, and so I was ignoring my own needs so much and just pouring into, you know, just serving community and doing the things and. And what have you. And then time, after a while, I started chipping away at my own, sort of like, I. I'm exhausted. [00:14:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:44] Speaker A: We're dealing with this for so long and seeing change and then a pushback. And then I also suffer the consequences of being the one who steps out there and then gets beat down and have my livelihood taken from me and certain things and what have you. And all of a sudden, I find myself in need. Yeah, I find myself in need of community, of support of all these things, and looked up and had to ask myself the same question. Who's going to save me when I need saving? But for me, that answer was community. Because the reality is, I have been in community for so long with people, and so community pretty much was begging me at this point, let us show up for you. You shown up for community in me all these different ways. Please let me show up for you. And I had to break myself down to be able to accept the support and the help. Sometimes we gotta feel like we can do it all ourselves. And so coming onto this project, you saw it was an immediate yes from me. [00:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:50] Speaker A: Which is crazy, because tell the people how we. How. How you got me onto the project. [00:15:56] Speaker C: So again, like, the wildest thing ever. Like, it literally anytime someone asks me, like, how did you get Angelica Ross? How'd you get Keith David? And I'm like, I can tell you the story of how I happened, but this is not a average, normal story. But literally, because. Because of Twitter, like, so when I write all of my characters, I always write with a specific actor in mind. So this was around, like, late 2018, 2019. And I'm watching Pose, and I see you in it as candy, and I'm like, my goodness, like, I am just completely blown away. I'm enamored with you as a human being. So then I always knew that I wanted, you know, a trans character in Captain Zero. And I had already, you know, had, you know, some basic kind of things. But once I had saw pose, I was like, oh, no. Like, I thought I found. I found the character. I found their voice, I found their identity. I found everything. And I just started writing and going crazy. And again, for me, I'm so. Art was really the main thing that I started with. So before I write anything, I always draw. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:02] Speaker C: So I drew Oblivion and what Oblivion looked like, and I made the basis of what that character looked like. Literally designed off of you. So one day, randomly. [00:17:11] Speaker A: She's gorgeous. I mean, absolutely gorgeous. [00:17:13] Speaker C: So one day, randomly, I just, like, make a tweet, and I'm like, hey, I made this character for the show. And I think this would be amazing because, again, the goal of this show is to show the intersections of all black experiences. Very often, especially in media pertaining to black people. We'll get some black people or certain parts of the community, but we're not really showing blackness as a whole. And I feel that black people and blackness is so multifaceted. And I was like, there's this character that I think would just be, like, so great to kind of really help break this particular barrier. I would love if you did the Voice, and I tagged you in it, and it was just a complete shot in the dark. I just made that tweet, I posted the picture, and I went to bed, and then I woke up maybe, like, 40 minutes later. It's probably, like, the ancestors nudging me. And I wake up, like, 40 minutes later, and I'm looking at my notifications on Twitter, and, like, instantly, I see there's a response, blue check mark. And I'm like, oh, what's going on? And it's you. And you're like, this looks amazing. I would love to be a part of it. Let me know. Let me know more. I'd love to figure it out. And I'm like, yeah, for sure. And you're like, yeah, just, you know, DM me the information. I was like, so instantly, I send you a message, and I'm sending you all the material. I'm like, here's the scripts. Here's the show deck. Here's more artwork. Here's a little animatic that we did. I'm just showing you everything that I have at that point. And you went through it. I think it took, like, a couple of hours. Then, like, you got back to me, and you were like, this is absolutely amazing. I want to be a part of this. Like, let me know any and every way I can help get this thing off the ground, because this needs to be made and the story needs to be told immediately. [00:18:47] Speaker A: And then I went to my agents because you told me that you wanted Keith David, and Keith David is at the same agency as us, you know, and so it's like they were able to connect you with Keith David. And he said, yes. [00:19:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:04] Speaker A: How does it feel for you to now have this project where you've got the Angelica, Roz. The Angelica, the Keith David in this project, and then we bring it to the space and you get it accepted to Tribeca and you have Whoopi Goldberg curating hand selecting our project to be a part of this thing. And I had to look. I saw you as like a. I saw the young you. [00:19:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:32] Speaker A: Standing next to Whoopi and being so, you know, just about this moment. What does it mean? What does it mean to you to stand in this reflection of this moment, coming from where it began, where you were dealing with this depression and to seeing what this has led you to now? [00:19:49] Speaker C: Man, it's so. It's so beautiful. I still feel like I'm still kind of coming down from the high of that experience and even, you know, meeting, you know, connecting with you, even, like, in the first, like, virtual interaction I had with, like, Keith, talking to him, like, all the life that he's spoken to me. [00:20:03] Speaker B: You. [00:20:04] Speaker C: When I talked to you for the very first time we did our interview, and all the life that you've spoken to me, I felt like that was honestly that the validation that I was kind of looking for as an artist, you know, not that, you know, we should go around seeking external validation, but what that meant to me because I respected you guys so much, because you guys both come from a very long, illustrious career of all these amazing projects that you've been a part of. So it's like someone of the. That caliber has seen something that I've done, and you don't know me from nowhere and you've seen what I'm doing. You're like, no. Yes. You're on the right path. You're doing the right thing. It was again, for me, it felt like the ultimate validation as an artist. Like, oh, my gosh, you know. You know what? Maybe I am good. I think oftentimes, at least for me, that imposter syndrome kind of creeping in of being like, well, are you as good as you think you are? Like, yeah, you think this draft is good, but, like, is it really? And on this long 10 year journey that I've been on, making Captain Zero again, like, the version of the script that you saw was draft 134. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:04] Speaker C: You know, so it took a long time to get the script and the quality of the story and the characters up to a point where it was like someone could read this for the first time. And it's an instant. Yes. But I had to deal with all of those nos and all those rejections and all the ghosting, you know, like. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Reaching out to them and then just. I've been there. Yes. Nothing, you know, so it's Pride month, and I think it's no coincidence that we are meeting during Pride month. [00:21:31] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:32] Speaker A: That I was doing this show during Pride month to highlight folks and I find out, you know what I'm saying, You are in our community now. Listen, identifying as non binary, the pronouns are they, them, they, them are the pronouns. How did you. Because again, you've been going through depression, you've gone through these things. How did you make it to a place to be able to embrace your non binary identity? [00:21:57] Speaker C: So, you know, I feel like it came to a point where I just couldn't not be non binary anymore. So something that I've heard in the experience of a lot of people that come out when they're older is the first interactions within people of their community. Kind of seeing other people that are already living the life that they would like to live kind of inspires them to be like, oh my gosh, like, I could also do the same thing. But also for me, it was realizing, like, I didn't even know that was an option. I thought the only boxes were like, male, female. And that's kind of it. That's. That's what I was raised to believe and raised to think, you know, so it wasn't until I think I was about like 16 years old and I had a friend that was non binary. And that was the first time I had ever met or engaged with a non binary person. And I remember actually the first time they came out to me non binary. I think my response was like, terrible. Not that it wasn't accepting, it was just very ignorant. Like, I was just like, I don't. I don't know what that means, but like, whatever you got going on, cool. Which is just like, that's awful. That's there. [00:23:01] Speaker A: I'm sure that was good at the. [00:23:02] Speaker C: Time, you know, but the longer I got to know them, the more it was like, oh, wait a minute, there are all these. All these things that I understand about gender are really just like social constructs. Even the way that people present, they're attired, none of these things are directly tied into who a person actually is. And again, also realizing that, like, oh, there's more options. There's more than just being this. And it made me go back and reflect to childhood. It made me think about all these instances where, you know, I was called a mama's boy or a crybaby or just overly emotional for a boy. Like when I was younger, because I've always been an artist. My entire life, I was like, oh, that's just the artist in me. That's why I'm so sensitive. But, you know, going back after, you know, doing all that knowledge and research, it was like, oh, no. Like, there were always things about masculinity that I just never got. Like, literally outside of the way that I dress, just because this just feels the most comfortable for me. There really isn't a whole lot of things that are very masculine about me. Like, I don't like manual labor. I've never really been into monster trucks and cars. The things that I do, like, are all really based on, like, aesthetic beauty. Like, to me, I think a Lamborghini Aventador is an amazing car, but not because it's a Lamborghini, because of boys. I'm just like, aesthetically, it's one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. So I've always looked at things through that vantage point, through that lens. And again, there were just so many aspects about things boys would do or things that were normal, socialized things for boys to do, where I'd be like, I don't get it. Why are y' all doing that? That's weird. [00:24:36] Speaker A: So what is. What? So what does non binary mean to you? [00:24:40] Speaker C: So non binaryness to me means the freedom to be and exist as I am as a person. You know, it's one of the reasons why I changed my name. I'm like, I want my name to be reflective and indicative of who I am. And again, like, singular letter. Like, I don't even want it to be like a full other name. Like, singular letter. Like, being I am just Z. That that is what I am. How I show up, the. How I, you know, engage with people, you know, the way that I show love for my community. These are all the things that I want people to remember about me, you know, not what my sexual orientation is or who I choose as a partner. I just want to be and exist as a person. Another part of, you know, finally coming out as non binary was it finally got to a place where it just felt like I just couldn't pretend to be a Man anymore. Like, you know, the more that I was learning about these things, the more that I was, you know, engaging more with my community, the more I was like, oh, my gosh, like, there's this whole other side of existence of being that I didn't even know about. So for like a good probably from the ages of, like, Starting at like 22, I knew I was a non binary person, but I didn't tell anyone I was a non binary person. And most of that had to do with the response of other people. I was like, what are they gonna say? They've known me their whole life as a man. What are my friends gonna say? Like, what's my mom gonna say? Like, I'm gonna tell them all to call me a new name. Like, it's gonna be weird. It's gonna be uncomfortable. And so much of it was again, predicated on how will other people feel about how I exist. But it eventually got to a point where it was like people would say my dead name. And it's like I started to getting a physical, visceral reaction to it. And I was like, that doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel right every single time people would say it. Because that name again, to me, was associated with everything that was the pretending of that version of me. And I was like, I. I don't want to pretend anymore. And it got to the point where the mask was so heavy, it was like, I can't keep carrying this. So we just got to the point where one day randomly, my group chat with all my friends, I was like, hey, you guys. So I'm not binary. If you got questions, here's the Google definition of what it means. I'm open to have a conversation if you guys want to talk and learn more about it. But, like, this is me. This is who I am. What's up? We still friends or what? And to my surprise, all of them, except for one, no longer friends, no more, were like, you know, I'm not sure I understand everything about this, but I love you and I want to be there for you and I'm committed to doing the work, to understanding you. And yeah, so I was like, what? Oh, my God, my friends are amazing. [00:27:10] Speaker A: Not only your friends, your sister. My sister is amazing too. Looks just like you, child. Y' all look just alike, everyone said. But seeing your sister there supporting you was so amazing. And then also getting to meet so much of the rest of the team and folks that have been there for so long helping you write these stories. Can you talk about Your team. And just, like. Because one of the things I am so proud of is, like, in the animation team, cutting edge. Like, didn't they work on another animation series that I really love? Didn't folks work on. [00:27:53] Speaker C: I mean, we had a couple of our animators that we've worked with, worked. [00:27:56] Speaker A: On, on a few things. Didn't we have a few people that worked on Invincible? [00:28:00] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, yeah. [00:28:01] Speaker A: So when you. When I tell you I saw it set in that theater gagging, you know, you sent me the. The scenes and the different things or whatever, but I haven't seen it in the whole thing together. So when I was seeing it all together, I was like. And I'm telling you, in that moment, I was enjoying myself, but I was also. Oh, my goodness, this is going to be huge. [00:28:28] Speaker B: This is. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Oh, my God, Whoopi can't stop talking about it. And, like, you know, I just saw everything happening in that moment. Talk to me about the different people and how you were able to pull together a team with such talented animators and co writers that you work with. [00:28:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I guess first, I'll start with Andre. Andre's my vice president, also my co writer, co director. He's who I met in Full Sail, who, like, about three months after I'd made Captain Zero, I met him and we started working together. The brief version of how we met is basically we were in a script writing class together, and both of us thought we were the best script writers in that class. And then we heard the other one go up and deliver their pitch, and we were like, hold up, wait a minute, I might have some competition. And it was my idea to essentially be like, you know what? I feel like if I don't work with this guy, I'm going to spend my entire career looking over my shoulder to be seeing what he's doing. So, you know, instead of doing that, let's just work together. And I feel like, you know, instead of being two individual, really good filmmakers, we kind of come together, we make one great film. [00:29:35] Speaker A: I love that because so many times people are focused on the individual route. And you guys have been working together for how long now? [00:29:42] Speaker C: 10 years. [00:29:43] Speaker A: 10 years. And. And let the people know. Captain Zero. That ain't it. [00:29:48] Speaker B: I mean. [00:29:48] Speaker C: Oh, no. Oh, no, no. We have so much. [00:29:51] Speaker A: I mean, you don't have to tell them everything. Yeah, well, we know that we got a lot of projects in the works. [00:29:55] Speaker C: A lot of projects. So that's Andre then, You know, we have our cmo, our chief marketing officer. [00:29:59] Speaker A: Oh, she's amazing. [00:30:00] Speaker C: She's amazing. Queen is absolutely wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. They're also my partner. Oh, my goodness. [00:30:06] Speaker A: Like, again, are they non binary as well? [00:30:09] Speaker C: Well, well, she. She goes by she. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Oh, she. Okay, because I just want to make sure. Because I love them and I want to make sure I respect them as well. [00:30:16] Speaker C: I got you, I got you. But yeah, no, she goes by she. [00:30:18] Speaker B: Her. [00:30:18] Speaker C: But yeah, no, like, Queen is just, just absolutely phenomenal. Like her mind, especially when it comes to, like marketing, like the ideas that she has. She also comes from an artist graphic designer background. She's also currently in school right now to be an art therapist. So it's actually kind of crazy how so many different parts of our world intersect. It's like I'm making a show about mental health and therapy and my partner is studying to become an art therapist. So, yeah, no, Queen is absolutely amazing. Then you have Chris Carthurn. He's our coo. He's another, again, super phenomenal person came in. He's the main reason why we even made a Part two. I wasn't even thinking about making a Part two until Chris randomly hit me up in an Instagram. Dm. Was like, oh my gosh, I saw part one. Well, at the time it was just the regular version, but he was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I saw part one and this was like, so cool. It resonated with me so much. It ends on a cliffhanger. Have you ever thought about making a part two? And if you do, I've got like $8,000 for it. And I was like, I wasn't at first, but now you've piqued my interest. And then that. That relationship was able to develop and blossom there. But he's great, amazing human being. That's Italian. He's our cfo. He came in actually just a couple of months ago because he's the reason why we finished the short film because we actually ran out of money. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Baby in. [00:31:32] Speaker C: What was that? The early of January was doing Goldfund. [00:31:36] Speaker A: Me selling merch, doing all the things. [00:31:38] Speaker C: Oh, my God, we were doing all the things. Like, we had that initial Kickstarter, we raised. The goal was 35,000. We raised 30. And we're like, oh my gosh, we got it. Okay, cool. Off to the races. And then, as is with all animation, animation is very expensive. And something that we do at cutting edge animation that's not common is again, we pay above what the traditional rate is for what most animators get paid, especially working on an indie level, because for me, I'm like, you know, everything. I want to be ethical. Our unofficial official slogan is cutting edge, never cutting corners. So I'm just like, I. If my goal is to differentiate myself from these other major studios, I want to make sure that everything we're doing, including our practices and how we pay people, compensate people, is different. So we end up running out of money in January, and we ended up raising, starting another secondary Kickstarter. We, funny enough, did not raise the goal that we wanted for that secondary Kickstarter, but the talion actually saw that Kickstarter, messaged me on Instagram. Again, I don't know what it is about Instagram and financial opportunities, but for some reason, they seem to find me on Instagram. Yeah, saw our Kickstarter, messaged me. He was like, hey, I saw the highest tier that you guys have to donate is $500, but I want to give y' all way more than that. I think this is, like, amazing. I would love to be a part of it. We hop on a phone call, we have a conversation, and it felt like in that one conversation that we had, it's like, I feel like I've known this guy, like, my whole life. You feel like the older brother that I've always wanted. I told him what our deficit was, and he was like, like, all right. Like, I know, because again, like, you know, black people and what it's. I was like, for me, I'm always like, I've always had to deal with the bare minimum. So I'm like, if you just give me the base, I'll make it work. But the Italian was like, no, like, tell me what you really need. I know this is the base, but tell me what you really need. I told him that number, and he was like, bet. No problem. Give me two weeks and I'll give it to you. So Chris is the reason we started. The Italian is the reason that we finished. Oh, you know, so, you know, he came through. Then we have Lori, our executive assistant. She's absolutely wonderful. They helped me with all of the things that I. Because me, my adhd, I can scatter. [00:33:44] Speaker A: Me, too. Don't, don't. Listen, listen. That's another adhd. [00:33:48] Speaker B: But. [00:33:48] Speaker A: But it is also a superpower as a superhero. Yes. [00:33:50] Speaker C: Yes. [00:33:51] Speaker A: Well, I have to say. I have to say thank you just so much for having the courage to make it through your own challenges. [00:34:01] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:34:01] Speaker A: You having the courage to speak up, having the courage to speak out and ask for angelic rose and get the ball rolling and all these things, because we are here now because of you. [00:34:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:12] Speaker A: In these moments, I can't. I cannot wait for us to work on the movie, on the feature film, y'. All. We are working on a feature film, so we still need your support. So please still stay tuned. Now, I do wanna. Will I be able to, like, play a little clip? [00:34:30] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. [00:34:30] Speaker E: A little clip for the people now. [00:34:32] Speaker C: That we got Tribeca out of the way. [00:34:33] Speaker A: Okay. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we can show. [00:34:34] Speaker A: We're gonna play a little clip for you so you can just see how amazing Captain Z is as we come out of this interview. So, again, thank you so much. Happy Pride. Welcome to the family. Thank you so much. Please, you know, like I told you, we are in this together. As a black trans woman, you know, my pockets don't run as deep, you know, all the time, you know, but I bring what, everything that I bring. And, you know, I will work and use everything that I have. So when we need something, but, you know, we're gonna. We're gonna get it together. [00:35:05] Speaker C: Likewise. Likewise. [00:35:07] Speaker A: Thank you so much, Z. Happy Pride. [00:35:09] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:35:09] Speaker B: Happy Pride. [00:35:11] Speaker A: We'll be right back. [00:35:16] Speaker B: What's wrong? [00:35:22] Speaker A: Walls closing in around you. [00:35:27] Speaker B: Hope fading. [00:35:32] Speaker C: Darkness overt. [00:35:48] Speaker A: You can feel it, can't you? [00:35:53] Speaker B: The despair sitting in. [00:36:14] Speaker D: Don't try and fight it. [00:36:15] Speaker B: Just sit back and sink into the abyss. [00:36:39] Speaker A: Baby, baby. I can't wait for y' all to see Captain Zebra. We are doing private screenings across the country right now. We just did one in Washington D.C. we got Chicago coming up August 24, I believe. You might want to check the Instagram to double check that. Follow captain0t a s I think is the handle also Z. Share me is Z C H E R A I M E. Make sure you follow along for all the good stuff. Thank you again, Z, for including me in on this amazing project. Thank you again for sharing your brilliance and coming on to the now podcast. This definitely opens up the door to continue our conversation because there's somebody named Z, also spelled Z E E, who is said, enough with the conversation. And then said, of course their partner is afab, and then said, I'm sick of the games. [00:37:50] Speaker B: So. [00:37:51] Speaker A: So we are going to dive into it because I. I think I understand where you're coming from and what you're talking about. We're going to tap into this, this a little a bit deeper here. I. And in order to do that, I basically am bringing on a powerhouse. Aaron Lang is a black Ohio born powerhouse who is part cultural critic, part creative visionary. She's made it her life's work to uplift the lives and legacies of Black transgender women. From organizing the first ever National Day of Action for Black Trans Women to hosting the Emmy nominated PBS series First Person, Aaron brings heart, history, and heat to every stage she steps on. She sparks the conversation at the White House, created a viral digital series with Anne Hathaway, and helped launch groundbreaking initiatives like the Illuminations Grant and institutions like the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. Whether she's behind the mic in front of a camera or writing the blueprint for liberation, Ms. Lange is here to shake the table, to tell the truth, and to remind us all of the beauty in black trans brilliance. Please welcome to now Erin Lang. Erin, how are you? [00:39:27] Speaker B: Oh, hello, everybody. I'm good. Let me get in. I feel like I'm not in the right place. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Listen, Z already. Z already knows that they didn't start at something. So we about to say this was. [00:39:38] Speaker B: A setup from the door. [00:39:43] Speaker A: You know, part of me said, you know, as I was, like, choosing which interview was going to be played, you know, tonight, I was like, like, this is perfect. This is perfect for me to play, you know, and to show another, you know, embodiment of non binary. But right. There is some confusion. There's a lot of confusion both in the community and outside the community. When we're talking about trans. When we're talking about non binary, I think there's some tension between, you know, trans, like trans folks who have medically and socially transitioned and those who identify as non binary and who have not either medically or socially transitioned. And, you know, obviously this became very apparent when we saw Laverne Cox's accountability conversation and panel with the girls. And in my opinion, it definitely should have been all trans women for that first Waiting to Exhale conversation, you know, because here's. I want to start this off by sharing a story with you all. And y' all might be like, what does that got to do? Anything, but I promise you that it's gonna connect. So I went to this. This cruise called Summit at the Sea, and it was basically this, like, special situation where they were bringing together a lot of, like, a lot of wealthy people, really. And it was mostly that kind of thing every year where they were coming together to discuss different ideas and what have you. But I think the person who was programming in that year wanted to really shake things up, so they invited me. Teek Milan, Gina Rocero, Dream Hampton, Patrice, Colors. Like, we were all there talking about Black Lives Matter, we were talking about Trans Lives Matter. We were talking about, like, all of the things and what I realized in that situation, and this is, you know, this doesn't have anything to do anything. But I will say that. But I will say that, you know, I had a great time. And, you know, there. There was this men all, you know, trying to hit on me in these spaces, and I didn't have a chance in. Because, you know, it was night, the music's playing. We're all like, have, you know, good time. I didn't have a chance in this moment to, like, disclose that I was trans to this guy that was trying to dance with me, me. And then all of a sudden, he's like, you know, sticking his tongue down my throat. And I'm like, oh, you know, like. And I didn't even have a chance to, like, I did not have a chance to disclose. So, you know, I was like, oh, hey, you know, let's put. Let me, you know, pull you to the side. You know, we had this conversation and he was, like, freaked out, highly upset, all these different things, whatever. I then end up meeting this other guy who. It just, like, who just almost erased that entire situation and just grabbed my hand and never let it go until the next morning. Like, we were just like, the same night. The same night, the same night. No, listen, I was just thinking, like, no, but this guy, like, he, like, it was great. Anyway, so we're in this area and we're talking with a bunch of friends, and I meet this beautiful African woman, and she's, like, telling me about. We're talking. We're having all these conversations just about random stuff. And I was just talking about me being an artist and how, you know, I was always jealous of the white kids in my town coming up, because every time I visited their home, they would have a piano in their house. And I play piano from ear, you know, by ear on this little Casio keyboard. But I. We did. We couldn't afford a piano, so I would have to, like, stay after school to play the piano, you know, And I just felt like, as an artist, it would have been so much better if I had a piano in the house. And this woman told me, she said, angelica. She's like, but you have to understand, it was your determination to make your way to the piano, even though you did not have one, that made you an artist. Just having a piano in the house does not make you an artist. Okay, so. So. So I. I want to connect the dots a little bit, because what I think is happening here is as trans people, we have been trying to make room and create room for everyone. To feel welcome and everyone to feel like they're not trapped in this binary of, you know, gender and all these different things. And in doing so, I think that it's added sometimes a little confusion because we say that non binary people are under the trans umbrella. And when we say that, we also sometimes say in shorthand, non binary is also trans. Right. And so that instead of when we say that, people think trans women, trans men, trans people, and they don't necessarily think trans is the umbrella term. And so I know that there are a lot of trans women specifically who are looking at folks like I now I know you damn lying to me that I have risked my life, hello, socially transitioning, looking awkward in this dress, looking awkward at first in my makeup or in this wig that wasn't the best priced wig. You know what I'm saying? We couldn't get the good stuff right away. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Drawing on mustaches and goatees, you know. [00:45:34] Speaker A: Tweezing and having to do with electrolysis and getting zapped. And like one thing that women, one thing that women know and we always say is beauty knows no pain, girls is because men cisgender men, we see videos of them, even experience the smallest amount of pain that women go through to beautify when they wax their chest or do certain things. So I say, and I'm going to kick this off to you as well. And I see that Brianna. No, no, I've the girls have joined the chat. [00:46:07] Speaker B: Say hi, girl. [00:46:10] Speaker A: The girls have joined the chat. And so because the Joy girls have joined the chat, I want to make sure that y' all have this number because Aaron and I are going to kick this off and start to get to talking. But you can text me at 1-888-991-2946 and I'll text you back with the studio link so you can join this conversation with us live. So matter of fact, as I'm saying that right now, I'm going to open a window right now so that I can see the text message window as they roll in. We're going to keep this conversation respectful and all the different things, but we are going to get down to the nitty gritty saying that to me. [00:46:50] Speaker B: That's not even for y'. All. Wait, wait, wait. [00:46:58] Speaker A: I am saying that to Aaron absolutely to because Aaron be airing it out. Aaron be airing it out. So, you know, I'm kicking it off to you because basically to say that I think that I also this might have been and I might be tapping into some more murky territory, but I think that this also might have been the issue initially that some women, cisgender women, may have had with their understanding of trans women and thinking that do you understand what it means to walk and be a woman in this world? Like, you just can't wake up one day and call yourself a woman. You know what? I'm in this, in a sense, and I, I kind of understand what they're saying. Somebody's, oh, I think somebody's calling that number right now. Do not call that number. Please just text that number and I will text you with that link. [00:48:00] Speaker B: We have thought, we have baby, they. [00:48:02] Speaker A: Said, we have thoughts, we have feedback. So I, I kind of understand in this sense that you don't know. Like we didn't know until we walked out the door and were read as women in the world what this was really gonna be. And I' ma tell you right now, I have felt left out by my mother in the sense of there's so much that I could have learned from my mother if she would have accepted me as a trans woman and passed down to me the wisdom and the warnings that I would have needed dating cisgender, straight identified men. And so it is through that, day in and day out, getting up every day, not, not taking it off, not deciding today I'm not going to do it because I don't want to deal with the pressure. I don't want to deal with the heat of society. We know right now that there are people who d transition because of the heat, because of how hot the heat can get. It's enough just being human in this world and trying to make a dollar out of 15 cents. Now you want to be trans too, but the people who are trans women and trans men like that, we, we. The argument that we be having a lot is that we don't have a. This ain't a. I know y' all think it's a choice, but the choice for me is life and death. It's not about what to wear today. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:32] Speaker A: What do you, what are your comments on that? [00:49:35] Speaker B: Okay, for starters, thank you for having me. Angelica. I'm still kind of on Captain Zero. I love Invincible. I love superhero stuff. So I'm really excited. Yes, I was really excited seeing the clip and y' all got Keith David. So I just want to say shout out to y' all and sorry to Z ahead of time for what I'm going to say because it's really all love. I think what I have to say about non binary identity is I don't know if I still would Categorize non binary identity as we know it today as trans. And I think even over the years I have moved away from trans as an identifier for myself because I do feel like because of all the work that was done, like you mentioned, the door has been left open and I'm not interested in it getting twisted. I think when we talk about people being able to take things on and take things off and put things back on. I agree the prize of admission for being who you are is gagging in the world. I was saying, you know, a lot of. And I hate to use Z as an example, but I don't exactly get the point, I think of some people's identifying as non binary. I think for black people, black masculine people, or black people who are read as men, I think it's really powerful that people identify as men and be as flowery or as interested in aesthetic beauty, you know, as they want to be. Because men are human beings and human beings have a wide range of expression and emotions and feelings. I think over the past maybe five, six years, the. How slippery this conversation is has allowed a lot of people who are not trans to take up a lot of space in a conversation that they actually don't know anything about. And that was something I saw, not anything about. But they don't understand the depths of, of the plight and of the walk. And I also. Just a little history piece, I think when we're talking about Olay and friends and how she played. Because there was a narrative about DeShawn who was the non binary panelist for that conversation. And my focus was never on DeShawn, even though I didn't feel like DeShawn needed to be there. My focus was on Olay as a woman who dates men, as a black woman who has some fucking sense and would like to date a man who has some sense. She has had to stray from black people. Just like Laverne and just like even Dominique and Cat mentioned in that same conversation. But back to my letting the door, leaving the door open. I swear they're connected. Just. [00:52:55] Speaker A: I know it is. I'm with you. [00:52:58] Speaker B: So over the past maybe five or six, six years, maybe, maybe seven, seven or eight years. Because the non binary conversation is so slippery when we say that is a. That's not. This is not nobody non binary. What are y' all talking about? Like there is nothing in this person's life that speaks to them shifting socially or even personally physically. There's none of that there. So what ends up happening is these people and their Theoretical genders end up silencing trans people who are like, hold on a second, that doesn't make sense to us. Or that doesn't align with us, then it, how are y' all telling me I'm also a trans person right now? Y' all are actually being transphobic? And then how that connects back to Olay's and playing a game is it's almost like you bring a non binary person into a space, a non binary person that I'm sure maybe was called sir or ma' am or whatever on their way over there and did not stop to correct anybody because they didn't need to. You bring one of those people into the space with trans people who have risk, like you said, have risked being beaten up, have risked being just ridiculed, you know, have risked losing housing, have risked losing access to health care and access to work. You bring these people in and when those people say something, it's y' all are transphobic. Because if y' all just want to say y' all are women, because this is the, this is what's not being said, right? What's not being said is all of us are full of. So when we say y' all are full of, since people get to be like, now, hold on, bitch. Y' all all playing make believe in my mother. Y' all all just some. So Olay on her call was like, as a cis, I don't think CIS people need to say anything about this. And I'm like, deshawn has a beautiful glistening beard. Where, where in your mind does this call full of black women? You see DeShawn in this conversation and. [00:55:33] Speaker A: I want to tap into that because I, I agree with you too, that Olay saying, you know, it's not her places, people, blah, blah, blah, she carried for that. True. Yes. Because what she, I think, I think what she unintentionally did was, did another separation between black and cis, black, trans and CIS women. Because this was actually the conversation that could show how we were much more alike than we are different. Yeah, she could have chimed in even more actually than Deshaun in the sense that as like you just said, as a black CIS woman having, looking for options and dating black CIS men and having to go outside of her race even though she doesn't want to. But she's like, like doing that to look for love. That was very valuable for that conversation. But I think what some of the disrespect that was felt from certain people, myself included, about some of the way that was done is that people, people. I said this before on the last line, but people. People get so wrapped up in the theory of transness, and they are not enough, don't know enough about the practical. [00:56:45] Speaker B: Because they don't care. [00:56:46] Speaker A: Because, DeShawn, you can tell me a lot about the theory, about all of this, because I was. I was picking up a lot of what you're talking about, about desire and all these different things, but you can't tell me about the practical of being a black trans woman. So, like, being trans is one thing as an umbrella thing, but you literally can't tell me about the practical side of being a trans woman. Woman. And so therefore I felt offended. And again, not in the way of like, just like, oh my God, you know, But. But the offense for me is in the continual experience of black trans women being provided with someone who's supposed to know better than them, somebody who's brought in as the expert, as the academic, as the medical expert and all these things. So we have had to navigate so many hoops to access hormone therapy, to access certain things to go through someone who tells us that they know better than us what our journey should be. So much so that a way that. The way that a lot of this started out, that medical complex actually screwed some people up because they were trying to tell you this is point A and point B. Being trans means you start here and then you're going to transition. When that wasn't the thing for everybody. When trans people needed to learn how to listen to their intuition, this trans thing was this. This thing needed to be about the practical more than it is theory. And the people who are actually going through the things are the people who are the writers of the. Of. Of the actual theory. The academia only comes but so close. And I thought it was just kind of a. A, it was an interesting disrespectful thing to put this person in a place that made it seem like they are again, of a different identity than these trans women. Yeah. Who is now telling Laverne what she needs to know is truth and telling her about her experience as I thought it was just. [00:58:52] Speaker B: So you were a Victor Deshaun Carey. Because. [00:59:01] Speaker A: Because the thing is, I'm just not sure that you could call Laverne is being. I think Laverne is being as transparent as she could be. [00:59:11] Speaker B: Laverne Tickets. Also, let's be clear. I mean, listen, I hate to cut you off, Angelica, but it's not opportunity. So I can't to say something while you're saying this right now. But Laverne is trying to sell tickets. Okay? Laverne don't care. For real what none of those bitches think. Laverne, when was the last. And this is no shade to mother. Laverne, when's the last viral moment Laverne had? You know, the trans ship. The ship has sailed. And I think one thing about this conversation and so many of the conversations we're having is we tried all of the. Everybody has an identity. Everybody's identity is valid. Everybody has a piece of the pie and a steak in the conversation. We tried that. It didn't work. Now we are under a fascist, Blatantly. Let me say blatantly, flash fascist regime. And trans people, people specifically, who go after medical and social transitions, are one of the primary targets of this administration. So for me, some of this stuff is. We can just cut the shit. [01:00:36] Speaker A: Absolutely. [01:00:38] Speaker B: Laverne is as accountable as she is to getting more work. Like, most of us. Us are like, she dates white dudes. And one thing I'm not gonna do is pretend that there is. Like, are there white people that are not racist? Like, are there white people that are not. [01:01:00] Speaker A: Okay, wait, wait. Let's. Let's. Let's not. Let's leave. I know you wasn't leaving that as a rhetorical question, but I do wanna. I do wanna hop on that question. I want to hop on that question because I. I think people do need to understand this. Are all white people racist? [01:01:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:18] Speaker A: Yes. The answer. The answer is yes. Now. Now, the. The longer answer, and adding something into that, is that because of the world that we are raised in, whiteness starts out the way that it is until you interrogate it. So basically, here's a. It's like this. Are all people ableist? [01:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:46] Speaker A: Yes. We live in a society that is ableist. I am ableist af. And I am disabled. Okay? So disabled people internalize. We all can internalize these things. But I just wanted to tap on that question real quick because it. Because Laverne also is someone who knows that. So for her to know that if all white people are sus. Until they let you know, or until they are showing that they are interrogating their whiteness, and you're telling race play. I don't think it was race play. The reason why. I don't think it was race play, because I don't. I don't see Laverne getting down like that. I really don't. I just think that Laverne. I. This is why I didn't want to initially have the conversation Because I thought Laverne was playing a little bit in the sense that. Why are you having this conversation publicly? Because if I'm going to be on that panel and we have that conversation publicly, you might end up mad at me because I'm not coming to play. I'm not coming to just fluff pillows and stuff. So Laverne and I have had certain. These conversations. Laverne recently was featured on a podcast, High Key. And she said on that podcast how she realized that she was groomed to make white people to, you know, make white people feel good or, you know what I'm saying, like, to. To cater to whiteness growing up in the space in these programs or whatever. And the thing is, is I think I. So there's just like this small room for human behavior. And I'll say that because I'll say, like, I also grew up in a space where I was in the gifted and talented and I was surrounded by white kids in my class. You know, I also. I think I also internalized a value of whiteness growing up. We all did, you know, and so there was a point of when I was 25, you know, and I was dating this man, and I spoke about this in the. The last thing, and people were like, oh, somebody said, Angelica's just trying to prove she could tell a worse story than Laverne. Because I. Because. Because I was talking about me being in a relationship for eight years with this white man. But he was not a cop, he was not a Republican, and he was not a MAGA person. He was one of those well meaning white people. And this is what I need y' all to under. This is what I need y' all to understand is that, folks, that's why Michelle Williams also, I think, ended up divorcing her husband at one point, is because when we're on the surface with white people, especially well meaning white people, then we just. On the surface, they're not being overtly racist about certain. Certain things. They even got black friends. But it comes down to when you really get to know somebody and their underlying beliefs and how those beliefs can be anti black, which is. Right. But so anti black is a part of racism, but it's like, it's just something that is more. Can be more unconscious and subconscious than sometimes overt racism. So that's the way that went. I want to also bring on somebody onto the stage. I don't know who this is. Hey, girl, wait, I'm gonna see. Wait, is she. Is she still there? Yeah, I think she's The Queen. Tulsa, are you still there? Do you want to jump on real quick? So we're gonna bring her on. We're gonna be do a three way here. Yeah. Kai, Kai. [01:05:26] Speaker E: How y' all doing, ladies? [01:05:28] Speaker A: How are you doing? [01:05:31] Speaker E: Yes, my name is Queen Tulsa and. [01:05:34] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. [01:05:35] Speaker B: Yes. [01:05:36] Speaker E: I'm based out of Tulsa, Oklahoma. I really appreciate you ladies. Fuse and what was your name? I know, Ms. Angelica. What was your name? [01:05:46] Speaker B: I'm Erin Lane. [01:05:47] Speaker E: Ms. Erin Lane. [01:05:48] Speaker B: Okay. [01:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:50] Speaker E: I just wanted to come up here and join in wherever y' all let me go in. [01:05:52] Speaker A: Yes. Well, listen, I want to get your, your feedback on. Like how are you feeling about sort of the gray line between folks, trans people who have faced the challenge of whether it is, you know, walking in the hood as a trans woman or whether that is facing the medical industrial complex that thinks you're crazy, you know, all these different things. What do you say about the sort of spectrum between trans and non binary folks? [01:06:22] Speaker E: Well, I'm glad that you asked that question. I'm here in Oklahoma, It's a Republican state. I went to the dmv. I'll give you an example. I went to the dmv. I got, I applied for a driver's license, a renewal in December. Didn't get it. One in June or April, didn't get it. I went there on June 4. It was a whole situation. They did, they saw me trans, it alerted them. They felt like, you know, they, I don't know, it was one woman. She just felt a certain type of way. I go back today to pick up my driver's license and they're asking me for my name change paper. My name has been changed for over since 2018. [01:07:19] Speaker A: Asking you to reproduce documents that you already produced. [01:07:22] Speaker E: Reproduce documents. And it's like it's a mockery. Now you want to bring up my dead name. Now you want to really verify who this is? Oh, it could be fraud, this, that and third. But no, you want to be nosy. We're looked at as like experiments, you know, like the guys look at us like fetishes. If we happen to be attractive woman in a relationship, people are going to give you this side eye because there are some, not all. Because how is this man got everything and I'm still over here chasing down my baby dad. [01:08:04] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. They, they, they, you know, because people are told if you go down this road, if you do this, whether you're in church, all this thing that you're supposed to experience hell, and when you don't and you're starting to experience a little bit of heaven. They're wondering, did they re. Are they reading the wrong Bible? Because they, they think told them that they were supposed to. To receive the kingdom and everything else. And they getting beat on by the man who's supposed to be claiming that they're his king, that they're their kings. What's that? [01:08:39] Speaker B: I said the girls are getting beat on too now. [01:08:41] Speaker A: Well, that's what I'm saying. No, the girl. We all, that's what I'm saying. We know we. But I'm saying is that like this. [01:08:47] Speaker E: This we're all getting beat on. Like if we talk about community, heterosexual sexual women, transsexual women, men are, if they have that in them, they're going to put their hands on you. So it affects us. [01:09:01] Speaker A: Wait, listen, listen to this. So this is where it comes down to. Because I think this is what we're about to get into it a little bit because I, I see this person's comment where they're saying, YouTube academia. And again, academia is saying to replying to someone saying they should read more Gender studies. Lived experience is not enough to speak politically correct on these subjects. Facts. And this is what us as trans women are trying to tell you say. What's that? [01:09:25] Speaker B: I don't fully disagree with that. [01:09:27] Speaker A: I don't disagree that we. That reading gender studies is a good thing to do. But, and I don't, I don't, I don't disagree that lived experience alone. But it is an assumption, right, to assume that black trans women are not well read. [01:09:44] Speaker B: Right. That, and that was a huge part of that conversation. The idea that between those women there wasn't enough scholarship or understanding about desire to really, really dig into it. You know, I think when we talk about women and gender studies versus people don't. I mean, people don't even believe the experiences of the girl. You could literally say, I walk out the house, I fucking twerk with men, I kiss and date and whatever and nobody ever knows. And people are like, please get out of here. No matter how beautiful you are or whatever, people just don't want to believe it. I lost my train of thought. I ain't even gonna hold y'. All. [01:10:29] Speaker A: No, no, no, you're good. But I want to also. Okay, so. Because we're breaking this down in a couple different ways. So I, I want to, you know, we believe in expansive gender liberation, but we just have to talk about, we got to talk about how the labor of trans people has been co opted or overshadowed Erase, like the. A race. Yeah. And that. Listen, and so what we're saying in the. In the situation is because someone was commenting that maybe that they were thinking that, you know, desean wasn't taking up too much space and authority. But the thing is, is that. [01:11:06] Speaker C: You'Re. [01:11:06] Speaker A: Talking to trans women. And what. The thing that is, is that when trans women are telling you what their experience is and what they're feeling, how is it that our experience gets pushed to the back in this? And all of a sudden, I saw trans women, you know, and I get it. That Quay. Quay definitely owed DeShawn an apology, you know what I'm saying? Because she was. She was a little bit out of pocket. I think she was. I think she was rude. Rude. I would say that, to say the least. I know she was trying to be a comedian, but there were. She was being a little rude. And so I think that she should have apologized. But me then seeing videos of Hope, Giselle, and other folks apologizing, I'm like, now why are the trans women all of a sudden now apologizing for a space that should have been centering them in the first place? [01:11:52] Speaker B: I. Yeah, I think. I just think we have lost the plot severely. Because for me, that conversation, as interesting as the conversation was, it feels. Y' all know that clip of Monique, like, is this who we are? Is this what we stand for? That is kind of what the whole dialogue kind of feels like to me. Because again, when we talk about the labor being erased, what we're really talking about was it was like a multiple prong attack, you know, on systemic transphobia. It was targeting government, it was targeting health care. It was targeting us interpersonally. It was also targeting representation. That was to literally save our lives. When I started being in movement, work organizing, what have you, we were begging people to understand that black trans people were facing a literal genocide in the United States. It wasn't just about. I know so much about this. You all need to be educated on it. It was literally, we are able to be denied every single part of the American dream because of who we are. Like getting fired, literally just for being trans. You could be doing a great job. Being denied housing, literally just because you're trans. You can have the money and the credit score. So when we talk about this separation, I don't think it's gray. I think it's. It's black. It's two different things. And I. I posted a video on my Instagram where I said, I think trans people are non binary, period. Right? Because the binary, when we talk about the binary and you know that people. [01:14:03] Speaker A: You know that some people have, that think is the completely the opposite. They think that we as trans people are meant to, that we're trans because that we're trying to gravitate, that they think that we want to be binary. I mean. [01:14:19] Speaker B: You know, I think, I think the thing for me, and this is what I think people use against people like us who are able to have a really full conversation about all of this. It's complicated. It is extremely complicated. It is extremely murky. Like so it's not just a. People don't want to be binary. People do want to be binary. People are binary and will live that way. But my thing is to believe in the gender binary, to believe in the gender binary is to believe you cannot manipulate it. You cannot believe that the gender binary is a real thing and believe that you can manipulate it. [01:15:10] Speaker A: Right. [01:15:11] Speaker B: Most people are trying to survive in a world that is not built for them. So I get offended at people who, you know, I said I was like. Even the bitch you see walking down the street with the three strands of hair dye, rainbow color and the ill fitting dress, honey in the, in the little girl ass book bag that is risking something to be out there. The cost of admission is gagging. [01:15:43] Speaker A: Okay, I love that you said that. I, I, you know what, Aaron, I'm gonna need you to go ahead and put that on a T shirt. I'm gonna need you to. [01:15:52] Speaker B: Admission is gagging. [01:15:54] Speaker A: Yes, you need to go ahead and put that on a T shirt and put your name Aaron Lane. Yes, yes. [01:16:00] Speaker B: You have to. All you're doing is taking up space and shutting up trans people who really embody and live this life. If you haven't paid the price of admission, it is not enough for you to say people get confused about my gender or whatever. So I want to relinquish my gender. And then y' all have to. It's not enough for me because people, people like Boy George exist. People like Grace Jones exist. People like Michael Jackson exist. People like Prince exist. Non binary people have been around forever. What our fight was was to secure our ability to literally live. Yes, literally live. So when bitches come in trying to throw text textbooks and trying to art, I don't give a about none of that. I don't give a about it from this identified people and I don't give a about it from non binary CIS people. Because one thing I also know is that the scholarship that women like us have been able to share the Stories we have been able to put to the forefront has made space for bitches who have not paid the cost of admission to cartwheel and dance and that they don't know, they don't know the cost of the oil in our alabaster boxes. Not you, you know. [01:17:30] Speaker A: No, I know, girl, I know. Again, I think that some CIS folks just are, have been accusing us of being like, trying to be exclusives or transphobic. But what we're really just doing is actually what we're actually calling for accountability though, to center those who are most impacted, you know, is, is setting the record straight. I, I, I, I, you know, exclusive. I, yes, we're being exclusive in the way of saying we're speaking exclusively to this intersection. You know, that's what we're doing. But we're not trying to exclude anyone, just in the ways of, you know, like even as a woman, like as a trans woman. I know, like, I, we're fighting for, for, for trans assist women to understand about our shared experiences and those things that really do affect all of us. But there are some conversations that have to deal with CIS women that ain't got to deal with me as a trans woman. [01:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:18:29] Speaker A: And I am not trying to take up space in that conversation. I can be here to support, I can be here some things, but I can't take up too much space when we're talking about having babies or menstruation or blah, blah, blah. We might have to add a trans man into that, you know, or, or whatever the case is. But it, it is, it is. I, that's why I think that some spaces, you know, when we have these conversations about exclusive women's spaces, all these different things, I think people are being a little too obtuse around this. I think that every identity deserves exclusive space. They're black. I think that black, they're just like we used to do. So let me explain it this way. I know you when we used to go to Creative Chain, Creative Creating and we would do the Racial Justice Institute and we would start, and it was an all day thing. We start in the beginning of the day and we make sure everybody in the same room, we're all on the same page. There is no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is a system and defining and all these different things. And then we would break into cohorts where white people, if this is your first time having this conversation, you go into room A. White people, if this is, you've been at this a couple times, you can go to room C and blah Blah, blah. And black people, biracial, you know, they will break it all down into these affinity groups. And the reason why they did that is so that they could talk freely without embarrassment. And white people could say all of the racist jokes that they heard when they were growing up and talk free, put it all on the table about, and not have black. Because, you know, it can be triggering for us to sit there and see you recalling your racist stories from your family and then also maybe not look at you kind of sideways about it too. [01:20:11] Speaker B: I'm looking sideways. Tell me the story. [01:20:13] Speaker A: So, you know, I mean, so, like, fully being able to put all that out and then coming into the greater thing and bringing what we learned and all those things back into the full cohort, I think we can do the same thing here. It's, it's. There are things that, like, CIS women can get together and, you know, have certain things that they get together, but we, as all, as women, we can get together and all have a different conversation. It doesn't have to be. But when it comes down to being, to sports and all these different things, one thing that you're correct about is when it comes to being a trans person, our fight has been about living. Our fight is literally so that we don't get murdered, that we can have access to health care, that we can actually have a job and not get fired from our job because our IDs don't match. There are so many. I, I can't tell you about how many non binary queer people I know have great jobs in the LGBTQ at the LGBTQ centers. You know, they, and again. [01:21:11] Speaker B: I'm the trans. I, I'm feeling the trans quota here. [01:21:15] Speaker A: And they're like, and, and, and, and, and again. And it pushes trans people out in such a way where it's like, how are we being pushed out of rooms that we help build? I, I want to bring back on Queen. Bring back on Queen in here. Now, I wanted to talk too, about. Let me go back to my little points here. You know, I, I do want to make it clear, though, that gender norms, gender rules, they, like, they, they hurt all of us. They, they stunt men's emotions. They, they stunt a lot of things. And, you know, when, when I want people to feel unburdened by gender, I want men to, to, to embrace their feminine side. I want women to embrace their more aggressive or masculine, whatever they consider, you know, masculine side rights. I think us as trans people were sent here to kind of help people free their minds, you know, from these things, but not to co opt something that is not your experience. And, and this is when I'm talking about experience, like our experiences in our bodies are going to be different. I thought it was so disingenuous of people to think that we are trying to police gender by the way that desean was showing up, you know, with the beard. But the situation is I, along with several other people who were like in support of desean, were misgendering desean while they were referring to desean. I accidentally misgendered desean bringing them up on a tweet. Then I saw somebody doing oh, then we were on the show last week and Jerome was speaking with, with, with Brianna and in their recollection of the story, they said he instead of they. And it was an accident, but so did another creator on YouTube who was. Went to Laverne's show and then end up saying the same thing. So let's not be obtuse about what we're working through here. We want to respect people's, you know, pronouns, but the reality is a lot of that is going to when you're non binary and CIS presenting. This is where I think that maybe Craig, you know, with TS Madison might have been because I, I don't see a lot of trans people, trans, like people who are medically transitioned and you know, so I don't see a lot of them beating people up all the time about their pronouns, especially, especially when they see that people are trying to, you know, that people are wanting, want to get it right and blah, blah. But when I tell you I be feeling, oh, I'll be sweating bullets sometimes, you know what I'm saying? Because I be messing up all the time with non binary pronouns when they're CIS presenting. Now I say that because the way, because I'll say someone like a loke and someone wrote into the chat, a look must be stopped. I don't know what's what that's all about. Somebody said the look must be stopped. But the thing is, is that the one thing with the loke, you know, wearing the dresses and the colorful hair and all this stuff while also having, you know, all this like body hair coming out of everywhere, what have you. But the thing is, at least I understand that this person is, I could say she because she's wearing. I, I think she, she's putting in some effort and it's going and it's being and it's gagging, folks. Now part of the gag is about how many of those colors don't go Together or those patterns that don't go together that's part of the gag. Like sometimes, like sometimes it be such a visual thing, like I'm just calling out being for real. [01:25:11] Speaker B: No, it's true, it's true. [01:25:13] Speaker A: Sometimes it's a visual gag, you know, in those ways. And what I know about Alok is I think that Alok is brilliant and I think that they help to strike up conversation that deepens the conversation in the same way that I think desean helps to deepen the conversations. I just think that, you know, I don't see this now with a loke now, but I know back in the day, back in the day we were all kind of a little bit. Everybody was like tussling between, you know, the trans group and the non baronet because non binary folks were actually calling trans people out as a problem because we identified a lot of us identify more on the binary side. [01:25:54] Speaker B: Oh, I'm sorry. [01:25:57] Speaker A: Was there. Did you want to add anything else, Queen Tulsa to the, to the comments? [01:26:01] Speaker E: No, I was just gonna excuse myself. I had waited so long and I didn't know that this was a two party conversation. So I'll come back next time. [01:26:08] Speaker A: No, no worries. Thank you so much. But so it's, and it's basically, it's not like I, you know, you can always jump in onto the things. But what I try to do on here, just so you guys know when you come on as guests and things like that. Well, yeah, yeah. No, but also, but also just I'm gonna pull you on and pull you off at different times just depending on what happens. Like when you had to step off screen for a second, you know, I pulled you off and then found the right time to pull you back on and all the different things. But feel free to jump in at any time. Rick says also love me some Alok any day. Yeah, so I, I do love Alok. I think that, and I think that Alok has brought some beautiful commentary into the space that is really, really help people think about things. And I also think that ALOK seems to at this time, I think they seem to navigate this the places well and not taking up too much space in black trans conversations. [01:27:03] Speaker B: Yes. [01:27:04] Speaker A: But also what Tim seems to happen is. And maybe you can tap into this is it seems like sometimes though also the non binary folks in the Butch queens end up getting the opportunity once the, once the, once the world starts to come on to certain things, it seems as if they might be handed opportunities quicker than the. The girls are like, you'll see like I know that Leomi, you know, one of the things that I know that Leomi mentioned back when. I don't know if it's been, you know, changed or anything like that, but I know that they had an issue with the fact that all this talk with. About the girls and whatever, but the girls aren't, aren't at the Renaissance concert. They're not in the meaning. They're not. They're not being hired as the dancers. They're getting more people who are more in the non binary space. You know, we know like honey slays down, you know, honey just really slays that space up. But also we know that Leomi would have carried too, you know what I'm saying? Like as a. And so why couldn't there also been obviously obvious black trans women there as well? But you know, again, we got got. We get what we get. You know, T.S. madison's on the track, you know, with Cozy and what's that look? [01:28:14] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm trying not to cut you off. [01:28:16] Speaker A: No, please do, please do. [01:28:19] Speaker B: You know, Renaissance for me, that one hurt deep for me because I think, you know, I see a lot of things that symbolic, right? So to me, one thing, I'm so happy for T.S. madison. I love T.S. madison. I would love to keep with her. She might call me a low down dirty bitch, but that's okay. I still love her. But TS Madison has a certain viewpoint, Right. She sees the girls a certain way. And to me, Beyonce is the type of artist who. She doesn't really say things directly. She indirectly kind of says what she stands for. And to me, TS Madison is a woman that has a. She lives with a very clear distinction between trans women and CIS women. [01:29:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:21] Speaker B: To the point that she will key at trans women who say they experience certain things. So to me, I'm like Beyonce. In my head, Beyonce feels similarly. Right. But it hurt me so deep because how could you, how could you have a whole album about a subculture that was literally pioneered by a black woman not being able to get her just due in a white space? Like a subculture that was created literally on the backs of fucking white supremacy and anti blackness as a response to that, that has lived on to be a space where some of our brightest stars are able to shine. A space where these women were mothers to literal community members and you can't even. In your fucking remix of Vogue, name one of the girls. You can't even let Leomi come out. I know the girls is out of shape. You know, you couldn't Let a girl come out and do a little lazy fucking one, two or something just for the simple fact that this whole production comes from black trans women. [01:30:59] Speaker A: Well, what did you. Did you think that. What did you think about Black is King? The reason why I asked that I love Black is King. I thought it was one of her most just epic projects. But I thought also similarly I thought that you went into a niche of blackness and I felt like the queerness was missing the trans. Like that. The fact that we know that we've been here from the beginning of times, even though we talk about the queerness of Africa. Did you. Did you see that represented in the fabric of that? Because I. I always feel like the conversation is a separate conversation. Like they like as if blackness and queerness are mutually exclusive and not showing that the sort of. That it's. [01:31:46] Speaker B: I'm. I'm challenged with that a little bit. [01:31:50] Speaker A: I'm asking, I'm asking because that's. I just didn't see any queerness in that. That's the one thing I would. I and I. I felt like we got a separate project with Renaissance which was wonderful that you know that she gave that flowers to that. But again it was just an illustration of me of when people don't maybe understand the fullness of how those things are art go together. [01:32:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, I think with like Beyonce is not queer, not to our knowledge. Right. So I don't really expect. I have like moved away from kind of expecting people to implant things that they don't really know shit about. You know, I think that has led a lot of our media astray over the past decade where like. And just like that was a shit show because they couldn't just be problematic rich white ladies. They now all of a sudden had to be down with the fucking queers and learning about trans. I don't need Carrie Bradshaw to know they them. I don't. I want her talking about shoes and set. Like I don't need that from her. And I think that idea that everything needs to have something for everybody has fucked up just a lot of. [01:33:04] Speaker A: I hear you there. [01:33:06] Speaker B: But I think for Renaissance that is specifically for and supposed to be in honor of this culture of these, of these people. And I know it's a deliberate decision to leave the girls out because people. People are. And this is piggybacking on alok and even deshawn people are way more comfortable with a loke being non binary than if I were to walk around and try to say all these things about being non binary. And how everybody is hiding their true self. People don't want to hear that from me because people are uncomfortable with the existence of the girls. I can't explain why that is. I'm sure maybe DeShawn or Elope could, but I can't. I can't explain why that is. But there is something. People have an acceptable tranny. Oh, I'm sorry. People have an acceptable trans person in their head. And it's somebody who they can still be like, that's a nigga, though, right? Like, you know, that's what they want. They want somebody who, like, I get it. When I see you, I see clown, I see whatever. That makes sense. But then we have you, Angelica Ross, looking like you are from planet, like, Black Beauty. Like, they don't want to hear. They don't want to hear what your experience is because that makes people uncomfortable. The reality of it all. And I would say, because the reality. [01:34:46] Speaker A: Of my experience when I talk to men, the reality of my experience when I meet cisgender men, I. There's so much I experience that is. Can be shared with CIS women who date because they read me that way. And then when I meet them, these men, when I meet them, they button up. They button up. Like, they button up for any woman that they are trying to. They know they have to work for. They button up until the moment I say that I'm trans. Then they unbutton, then they unzip. [01:35:21] Speaker B: Oh, you've been playing with me this whole time. You almost got. [01:35:26] Speaker A: Well, no, then they unzip. Then they want to do. Be sexual. Then they want to just be literally unzip. Like, they literally unzip. And so what I mean by that is this is that. And then, you know, I have these men, I have these conversations with them, and I'm like, so if you found the love of your life and she told you after some time that she was not able to have children medically and not able to have children as a CIS woman, would you break it off with her? And there were some men, and it just was different. There were some men who said, yes, I need to. I would want to have kids of my own. And there's some men who said, well, I guess if you put it that way, no, I don't see. And you know, men who don't see women's body parts is just a baby factory. And that's the only thing that they're good for. You know, they're like, oh, you know what? Actually, well, maybe we could have, you know, I I see what you're saying. That, you know, they see that experience, and then I also then pull out of myself. I'm like, actually, then it's not a uniquely trans experience for me to be rejected because I can't have kids. Kids. [01:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:36:37] Speaker A: And I can feel. I, I, I, again, I don't. I can't completely. I can't completely tell you how CIS woman feels to be infertile, to not have children or what have you, but I can tell you. What's that? [01:36:52] Speaker B: Do you feel like a man? [01:36:54] Speaker A: She. Yes. She says you feel like a man. Well, I don't. I don't know. I can't speak on their behalf and know how they feel. But what I know is that, like, I used to go to the airport, and I remember just, like, looking over and seeing them folding up the, the, the. The husband's helping fold up the thing so they can get on the airport, somebody's got a baby on their back, and the thing. And I'm just looking like, there used to be a time in my life, and I'm just like, I. That's never gonna, I'm never gonna be able to have that family experience. And, and, and, and, and so much so that girl life gagged me. Some years ago in 2020, some of y' all will remember this, that I got dragged across the blogs and everything else, but because I had dated a man that I didn't know was already engaged and had a baby, I felt so. [01:37:48] Speaker B: I felt so. I keyed in the name, but I felt so sad because I was like, oh, you know, the girls want. The girls want their black man. [01:37:59] Speaker A: You know, Girl, I listen, I did not know. I. I never am able to tap into my fame when I want to. It never seems that I could just be like, oh, here I am. Go to the bank. It's supposed to do something. But the moment some drama happens, I know I'm famous. Girl, when I tell you I wanted to cut. I want to dye my hair, wear a wig and glasses for. For like a month, because I was. Girl, I was on Page Six. I was on Portia Williams and the Brat talking about me on Dish Nation, and I was mad at the brat because I was mad at the brat because the brat's like, now Angelica in the wrong for, you know, putting his business out there like that and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, hold up. What do you mean? Like, that I'm putting out there that he's dating? I'm like, first of all, I'm post opinion so I'm not putting anything. He's the only thing he's seen is a vagina. So. Yeah, so you. So you're letting me know that you don't know that there is also pre op and post op trans women. And second, and secondly, that man told me, you know, to. To put that information out there. And so he knew that he had the situation going. Long story short, standing in my kitchen, I'm telling t, I'm standing in my kitchen, and we all in the text message thing, talking about his baby mama, his ex, fiance, whatever, they all want to talk. We all want to talk. Everybody got to talk. I guess we all got to talk. So together. [01:39:38] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Okay, go on. [01:39:41] Speaker A: We in my kitchen, she crying, he crying, the baby crying. And. And she's just like, trying to get down to it, and she's like, so this, you really want to be with her? And blah, blah, blah, this and that. You know, he's telling her, yeah, you know, this, that, and. Okay, so let me just tell you. Look, the baby. The baby was a baby. The baby was not like baby cuckoo, but the babies were still not fully speaking words. Let's just say that the baby was. It was a baby, right? [01:40:17] Speaker B: It was. We were 12 still in the 12 months or past 12 months? [01:40:21] Speaker A: I think past 12, I think, okay. [01:40:24] Speaker B: Like 18 months or something. [01:40:25] Speaker A: Something around there. Something around there, you know, I don't know children like that. I really don't. Now, remember I told you I'm in the airport having dysphoric episodes, because I'm thinking I'll never be able to have my family experience when I tell you this girl said, okay, well, I'm just letting you know, you gonna take care of this kid. If you gonna have a life, I'm gonna have a life too. And she just gave. She handed the baby to him. She said, here you go. She said, I'll see you tomorrow, blah, blah, blah. She left. So then here. Here I am standing in my kitchen with my man and a baby. [01:41:12] Speaker B: How long. How long you last with the baby girl? That's what I wanted. [01:41:16] Speaker A: About a couple days. I said, like, no, but. Because what had happened was. Because what had happened was I just. I literally was standing there and my mind was like, well, how else did you think it was going to happen? And I was just like. But not like this. Like, I don't want no dude that's not. Barely not taking care of his kids and, you know, wanting to escape from, you know, all this and not being upfront about things because the way you get them is the way you'll lose some type situations. I don't want that. He, he has been begging me to take him back for years. I, I, I have not taken him back. [01:41:49] Speaker B: The baby starting yet. [01:41:52] Speaker A: Who knows? Girl, I done checked out from that thing. But I know that girl. Like when I tell you the baby mama wanted to be my best friend, we would, she was like, she was, she loved, she was a fan. So that's why she couldn't be too mad at me. [01:42:04] Speaker B: She said I could do worse. I guess you could have a dance. [01:42:09] Speaker A: Brianna said life comes at you fast, honey. It sure does. I don't want to gloss over. I saw there was a little kerfuffle going on in the, the tag text message. I mean in the, the chat room. People were going at it. I don't know why. And you know, Brianna and they, I saw, you know, I don't know, I saw Queen was. I, I just don't know. There was some attitude and things going on. [01:42:35] Speaker B: Who was on the call? [01:42:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they were just in the chat message, like going back and forth like real bad. [01:42:40] Speaker B: Oh no, Diva, it's okay. We just want to be honest, you know, in no shade, since we were not talking about like the DMV and stuff. And I think, I think it's also okay for that not to be the topic of conversation. [01:42:56] Speaker A: But I mean, but I think what she was saying though was very, you know, was for the conversation of saying the things that we go through as trans people, having to show up in these public places to bring documents and do all these different things and have to go to court for the documents, pay all the stuff that we pay for in sweat, blood and tears. Being a trans person needs to be considered and needs to stop being discarded as if we don't know what we're talking about. And because baby, I, I've read gender theory books too, you know, I, Julia Serrano, that's my girl too. That and Julia Serrano is actually a white trans woman who's very much academic. I think she's even like a, some kind of science test biologist. [01:43:36] Speaker B: Whipping girl, right? Who wrote Whipping Girl? [01:43:39] Speaker A: Julia Serrano. [01:43:40] Speaker B: That's what I thought. Okay, Right. [01:43:42] Speaker A: And that's what, what they don't understand is for many of us, trans girl especially back in Whipping Girl was like, was like 101 reading. It's when, when you were getting into the academia of it all. Like, Julia Serrano wrote the hell out of that book. So like Queen, you want to get on and you want to. Aaron, hold, hold one second. I'm gonna bring. [01:44:06] Speaker B: I'm back trying to read now. [01:44:11] Speaker A: Okay, hold on one second. We're gonna bring you up because it's all good. Where did we. I'm hoping. [01:44:16] Speaker E: So is this. Are you. Were you the one that was texting me on the chat? [01:44:20] Speaker B: Aaron? [01:44:21] Speaker A: A, E, O, n. No. No. [01:44:23] Speaker E: Okay. We. I was up here and I was speaking about an experience. But you know what this is the divide in the trans community when a girl is out here trying to find a space is individuals that make us feel uncomfortable and to where we don't. [01:44:41] Speaker A: Feel uncomfortable, where we. [01:44:42] Speaker E: Because I don't like mean girls. If we're. If this is our first time meeting and this is how we. You got. You asked me. [01:44:49] Speaker A: So what was, what was. [01:44:51] Speaker E: I'm finishing. Yeah, the energy up here just. I mean, y' all were both talking. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was a lot. I was trying to be polite and talk when, you know, when I had the chance to. But y' all were having a conversation. You never let the conversation. Well, let's just let Queen speak. You know, she's been here, she's been quiet and things like that. So it just. And then all this, the pre op and all that and the white. And this, that my husband is white and I don't give a. I'm gonna love him. [01:45:24] Speaker A: There's nothing wrong with dating white people. [01:45:26] Speaker B: I just said all white people. [01:45:27] Speaker E: It was a pink. It was an opinion that was stated earlier. [01:45:31] Speaker A: What opinion? [01:45:33] Speaker E: That all white people are racist. [01:45:36] Speaker A: So you don't believe that you work with right people. So this. [01:45:39] Speaker E: What's. I'm trying to figure out, what's the complaint? What's the complaint? [01:45:43] Speaker A: So this. We can have this conversation. The reason why we say this, that's a. That's shorthand euphemism in academia spaces. So it's shorthand euphemism to say that all white people are racist. Because it gets people to say like what? It's a euphemism. But the reality is in academic spaces is we're talking about, just like we explained, the fact of being ableist, that we are brought into a world that centers able bodied people and centers whiteness. And if you are white, you are brought up in that way to center your whiteness, your white opinion, all these different things. So all white people are racist who. Until. Until they start to create a relationship in interrogating their whiteness. Because if you just leave the whiteness alone and Say I'm just a good white person, then you are going to be unconsciously participating in anti blackness. That is the kind of experience I've had with even my ex fiance is that he wouldn't consider himself racist, but he also did not. He would spend no time interrogating his whiteness and was just moving around as a white man in ways that were anti black, that were unchecked. So what we're saying here, just as an able, just as ableism, it works across the board with all of it. Ableism, racism, all of the different things. I am not saying I'm a bad person because I'm ableist, but what I am saying is there's no doubt about the fact that I grew up in an ape, that I'm ableist, that I. The way that we operate and even with our own selves and try to not try to hold on to our jobs when we are experiencing different things that are disabling and we're masking the fact that we're having this problem so that we don't get. Get fired or so that certain things don't happen. That's internalized ableism. So we're just explaining the fact that I don't care what white person out there. We're great. Love you. Have you been interrogating your whiteness? No. Then you can't be trusted. Just like I can't be trusted as somebody to not be ableist if I haven't been having a conversation about what ableism is. [01:47:47] Speaker E: But I get that point. But our people are racist against each other. That's a big, big problem. And like old girl said in the middle tonight, oh, I don't want to have to read nobody. Baby, you ain't gonna read nothing. [01:47:59] Speaker A: No, she said for you not to come on and reading. That's what she was saying. Hopefully. [01:48:02] Speaker E: No, no, I, I knew what she said. [01:48:04] Speaker B: I, I caught it. [01:48:05] Speaker E: But my thing is if we're going to be trans sisters and we gonna come together for a good cause, there should be some type of decorum, some type of structure, let everybody talk. [01:48:15] Speaker B: You know I'm new here. [01:48:17] Speaker A: I know, but if this is how. [01:48:18] Speaker E: Y' all introducing me, why would I want to sit at a table with y'? [01:48:21] Speaker B: All? [01:48:21] Speaker E: Why would I want to go to. [01:48:22] Speaker D: A meeting with y'? [01:48:23] Speaker B: All? [01:48:23] Speaker A: Listen, listen. [01:48:29] Speaker B: She said that there was an argument happening in the, in the chat thread and that she was going to bring you back. I said don't come in here trying to read. Now I don't need you to tell. [01:48:39] Speaker E: Me what to do. I'm a grown woman, and so am I. [01:48:42] Speaker B: So I'm gonna need. [01:48:43] Speaker E: Okay, so don't tell me what. But listen, that's where you messed up. [01:48:47] Speaker A: Sister, because you let me moderate this because I don't want this to get. [01:48:52] Speaker E: Out of hand with your energy. So she said, don't come up here with this and that. Then I'm gonna give you. [01:48:56] Speaker A: What. [01:48:57] Speaker E: What did you mean by that? Because I'm a grown woman. I know how to conduct myself. But I thought that. [01:49:03] Speaker B: I thought that it was a very. [01:49:04] Speaker E: It was very rude. And it's so interesting that you're speaking up now when you saw me sitting up here on the whole panel, and I wasn't saying nothing. You didn't even say, well, let's. Let s. Speak. [01:49:13] Speaker A: Well, that's not. Because that's not what. Wait, wait. As a. [01:49:16] Speaker E: As a conversation, I. I try to come up here and have a conversation with y'. [01:49:22] Speaker B: All. [01:49:22] Speaker A: You have now, so basically. Because the thing is, is that she wasn't listening at all to. And the thing is, is that the. All this energy. She brought that energy. She brought this. [01:49:35] Speaker B: Can I say this to her also? I was booked to be here. Okay. [01:49:40] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [01:49:42] Speaker B: We're not just sitting right. Cafeteria talking. [01:49:46] Speaker A: Aaron's name was on the actual show notes to come in and that we were going to be specifically talking about this. [01:49:52] Speaker B: I just want to dispel something that she mentioned. We are not all sisters. I don't know you from a can of pain. And I think it's okay for us to say we don't know each other from a can of paint. And there was a lot that can be a assumed when we don't ask clarifying questions. Absolutely aware that there was any issue. Oh, okay. It's the Queen Tulsa show. Okay. So she's. She giving. Laverne. She trying to sell tickets. Anyway, moving on. [01:50:23] Speaker A: Gotcha. Yeah. And Brianna, if you want to bring. Come up on here, text me, because send me. You know, send me a text so I can send you the link. I know you had that number that you text me with before, and it might still be. It might still be the same link. I don't know. But, you know, I. I really. Because I wanted. I tried to give space to have this kind of calm down a little bit, but it was like, what's happening there? And what I saw happening there with her is she's coming in new to a conversation that has been going on. So when she's talking about. She was about to say that we as black people can be racist again in, in saying something that's not true. Black people, we cannot. [01:51:06] Speaker B: Get out on me if we keep talking about. [01:51:08] Speaker A: You're right, you're right. But black people, we cannot be racist. We can, we can be prejudice, we can discriminate, we can do all of those things, but we do not have the power. We do not have the power that, that racism has. Because anytime that we think we're going to tap into that power, racism will eventually let you know, Candace Owens or any of those other pick mes that think that they can tap into the power that racist people are doing, they're going to gag you too, girl, and let you know, no, you don't have the power to participate in this. [01:51:40] Speaker B: Angelica, I love you so much. You are so gracious. Oh my gosh. [01:51:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:51:53] Speaker B: So that just gave, you know, I. [01:51:56] Speaker A: Just try, I just try. I just try to make space for everybody. I try to make space for them, but you have to. And folks, when you're coming into community, you just gotta take responsibility for your own energy and the way that you're coming into the space and not assume about, not assume what's happening. When things are moving around you. When you're new into a space, you're creating all kind of narratives and emotions around things that didn't. That weren't there. And then I saw, you know, yes, she did get you confused with Brianna in the chat because her and Brianna was going at it and Brianna was reading her fulfillment. [01:52:31] Speaker B: What's going on? [01:52:32] Speaker A: Brianna was reading her down. Angelica Ross. Buddha is gagging and giving 10. No, absolutely. But I, I think the point still stands at what we were all talking about. Why you say Z? Z saying I played. [01:52:54] Speaker B: Who's saying you play? [01:52:55] Speaker A: Z saying I play. She thinks Aaron is eon. Yeah. No, I think she's. Somebody might be confused, but these girls are insecure and have no community. And that is, that, that is the thing is sometimes p. You know, when they're trying to get community and they see, you know, they feel like some girls are and some girls are mean girls and the different things. But like, I don't know what to say. [01:53:23] Speaker B: This is not the place to meet new friends. So I also want us to not be speaking as if what she was saying was the truth. Because you. Angelica Ross's podcast to say, I'm trying to make friends in community, girl. We are having, having a conversation with a topic that you could have spoken into. I think my issue is I, I don't understand. And this isn't Just her. This idea that your identity is a virtue of somehow you being a tranny, you being non binary, you being whatever does not speak to the content of your character. [01:54:09] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [01:54:11] Speaker B: So the idea that always has to be that you are speaking in good faith because I know that you are trans. I'm not operating out of that place. I have easily had a conversation with Blondie, but she wanted to be hyped and she wanted to get a clip for the Queen Tulsa show. So, sister, I hope you got it. And white people are still racist. Pass. [01:54:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's basically what it is. I know. And so basically. Oh, she said she needs. She needs the new link. Okay, so. But did you. Did you text me, though, how you got. You got to. Rihanna wants to hop on really quick. [01:54:52] Speaker B: I was gonna say don't bring Blondie back. [01:54:54] Speaker A: No, no, she tried to get back on here, but. No, but I am going. [01:54:58] Speaker B: I'm talking about that. Bob. [01:55:01] Speaker A: See, stop. We gonna keep it cute. We're not gonna be mean girl. Like, because you see that she. You can see what you see. You know what I'm saying? Like, you see. So like, just, you know. You know, you see that. That she's just not picking up what we're putting down. I think Brianna, I'm trying to. So I'm gonna put this banner up so you can see the number if you need the banner again. Let me. Wait, let's see here. Oh, there go Brianna. Okay, good. There's Brianna. Okay, so I'm. I'm texting you the link right now. There you go. You got the link. Because I know Brianna gonna have some words, but. Yeah, you know, but. But again, overall, what we're getting at is. [01:55:43] Speaker B: And no shade to clean talk, so I just had to get her back. [01:55:46] Speaker A: No, of course. And that's. That's what the girls don't know. He's like, you know, that's. That's what they don't. Like, that's. Being one of the girls, too, is like, you got to know the boundaries of the talk talk without getting too hype about the situation. Us girls, we give it to each other. You understand what I'm saying? But we don't. We don't have to fight like that. That doesn't. That doesn't have to be like that. Brianna is coming back. Where? Brianna, are you here yet? Okay, she's coming backstage. She's getting logged on. But so I just. Again, just to reiterate what we're talking about here, when we're talking about trans versus non binary Understanding that there is an umbrella. But being trans and being non binary are not the same thing. And we don't always belong in the same contin conversation when we're having those things. Sometimes it has to do more with your actual experience, you know, with your lived experience. And when it comes to, you know, film presenting trans women, we understand that just the difference between trans men and trans women, the fact that the world acts completely obtuse and don't even understand that trans men exist. And it's because of their hyper focus on femininity and women that they. That we end up under this magnifying glass of womanhood too. Because they're already got this magnifying glass on every woman. So when we understand those things, we understand there's an immediate experience that's going to be different because of that fact. And if we're going to play in each other's faces about that, that I'm not, you know, I'm not interested in like doing it in. In doing that. I just heard Brianna pop on. Here we go. We got add Brianna to the stage. Hey Brianna. [01:57:24] Speaker B: Oh, hi Brianna. Rihanna. [01:57:28] Speaker A: What was going on, girl? [01:57:30] Speaker D: She was trying it. That's what was going on. [01:57:36] Speaker A: Because she started, I think she started getting mad. You, you started get. Because she was mad that I took her off the thing in the beginning. [01:57:41] Speaker D: Sis was mad when she had to drop down and you took her down and then you brought her back up and she was on 10. And what it gives me is the girl that's in the support group that no matter how you try to accommodate you, they come looking for the fight. I'm not, I'm not new to this. So I knew what I saw when she was doing the most. And it was nothing either of you could have said to her to bring her down. She was. My sis was looking for a fight and okay, I had to get at her to let her know. And my name is not Aaron, it's Aeon. And we need to, we need to do this better. When we see people trying to come at our sisters for no reason because we have all. We have also experienced this in the movement or in the work. Girls feeling some type of way about something and them feeling like it's licensed to come at you. If you're at your depth, if you're not understanding the conversation, it's okay to ask. This is a round table situation. If you want to jump in says jump on in. That's what this is for. We're all grown women. But also she's talking about white folks ain't racist sisters and Tulsa fighting for her life. But we need to keep her lifted up in evangelical Christian prayer. [01:59:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:59:07] Speaker D: And pray for her, her coverage and protection. Because sis saying that black people can be racist, too, it's just like, you're not ready, and I don't want to. [01:59:17] Speaker A: That's what it was. You're not ready for this conversation, and you're getting mad at us. [01:59:21] Speaker D: And I'm not saying that as to. To put her down or to put anybody that has that mindset down, because there's a lot of people that say that. And we want everybody to get the awareness. But every conversation is not for everybody, and that's okay. Also, we need to reclaim the word transsexual. No shame. That conversation with Laverne Cox and the girls, that was a transsexual conversation. That was for the girls. That's on the transsexual part of the umbrella. Everything is not for everybody. I know everybody wants to feel included, and it's a big umbrella, but it's a transsexual. [02:00:01] Speaker A: But I think everybody could be included on the MSNBC panel. [02:00:04] Speaker C: Right. [02:00:05] Speaker A: You know what I'm saying? Like, when we. When we zoom out and everybody's talking about all the different things and bringing in this expert and that expert. I get it. But at that initial conversation, you're right. It should have been the transsexuality. [02:00:16] Speaker D: To me, it was a trend. And again, going back to the conversation from last week, shout out to Jerome, sweetie, you did not have to block me. I thought we were having a healthy debate. We're both community members now. Now. Now that I know you're under the trans umbrella, I thought we could go back and forth and still be cool. But it's okay. When I see you in person, I'm going to roll up on you and be like, now, you know, you ain't have to block me. [02:00:37] Speaker A: But getting back, right? [02:00:39] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [02:00:39] Speaker D: Getting back to my point, it is a. It's a transsexual conversation, and it's okay. And it's. It's no shade to DeShawn. Like I said last week, I felt what they were saying, but you can't. You can't tell me what it's like for me. Moving through spaces, navigating love as a woman, interacting with me like, it's just not going to hit the same. And then I watched desean's Live after the Fact, and it was a certain. It was a Dashawn came into that conversation. I know everybody was saying, Quay it was rude or everything, but Daeshaw was rolling their eyes at Quay from the first time that Quay quit spoke. I saw it. And then in the aftermath, it's, well, well, none of y'. All, y' all are saying y' all are binary. That's not real. And none of y' all pass and all of y' all are anyway, if you roll up on me calling me a nigga, we gonna have a problem. Because like that's your experience, that's not mine. And the problem. [02:01:43] Speaker A: They said that. [02:01:44] Speaker D: Yeah, they were, they were like, nobody's non binary and that's not real. And Trump looks at all of us as we all way. So we all. I, I, I here's. [02:01:54] Speaker A: Oh, that's that T.S. madison talking point. [02:01:56] Speaker D: Like, yeah, said I. I identify as a. And you should identify. I'm like, no, like now you're jumping off the end and I gotta go. [02:02:06] Speaker A: Back and see that. I didn't, I didn't hear all that. [02:02:08] Speaker D: That was the live. That's on their, their Instagram profile where the, where most of the people. [02:02:13] Speaker A: Did you see Olay? Did you see Olay had. [02:02:19] Speaker B: Story? [02:02:19] Speaker A: It was a story. It was. [02:02:21] Speaker D: I stand by what I said last week. I felt like on a subconscious level it was shade that we have this non binary person with the beard with these five trans women. Because on a subconscious level, and I don't know if this will admit it, it's given like, well, it don't really matter because they all men with beards anyway. [02:02:40] Speaker A: Well, I'll say what you're saying leads to what Aaron was saying in the sense of, of what it sounded like when, when Olay was trying to pull herself out of the circle of the conversation. As a CIS woman like that y' all need to talk. And as a CIS woman, I, I don't have a, you know, a dog. Yeah. [02:02:58] Speaker D: Why couldn't, why couldn't you be in the conversation, sis, if we're all women having a. A one. Not a female experience. A woman experience. Like, come, come, come. [02:03:08] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:03:10] Speaker B: I'm so these distinctions are making my head. I'm like, this is a women's conversation. [02:03:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes, women. [02:03:20] Speaker B: We are black women with s. But. [02:03:23] Speaker A: I thought it was so wrong. I thought it was such a full spin when Olay was on her story talking about like, basically accusing trans women of being. [02:03:36] Speaker B: Transphobic. [02:03:38] Speaker A: Transphobic. Like, because we are, because we are trying to identify the specific, the specificity in this conversation and saying, no, this is not, this is not the same thing. We're not the same Thing. And I don't care what books you read, I don't care what academia you think. You're not going to come on here and position yourself as an authority over real trans women. [02:03:58] Speaker D: YouTube Academy Academia you have been. Nobody is shook. I. I am living freely. And how, however I show up, up, I know who I am. And you can't tell me who I like. I. I know who I am. Just because I claim a label or anything does. I'm living my life free. Free as a bird. [02:04:19] Speaker A: Same, same. Because that. I see somebody on here saying, these labels got you shook. And no, let me tell you something about us. [02:04:25] Speaker D: YouTube Academia is really destroyed because the. [02:04:34] Speaker A: Thing is, is like I learned when I was reading A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, you know, and, you know, really, he really hit it home with these labels and basically talked about, like, the fact that we call a son a son and a tree and a tree, and we've given all these things, all these different names. We then act like as if we know what that thing is because we get in a label and we stop sitting with the experience of being with these things. And he talked about how the fact that, like, with these labels, whether you are a mother, a doctor, whatever it is that people get trapped in their identities of and playing roles, this is what a woman's supposed to do. This is what a man's supposed to do. So we understand those things. But when it comes to queer and LGBTQ people, this is what I want to put down. And let me see what y' all think about this as well. I always say it's great when we end up finding an affinity, a group, a label, or certain things, but if you find a thing, drop it almost as soon as you find it. Meaning. It's. It's not something that you just have to carry around all the time. Like, I know it helped me find direction as a trans woman or pansexual, all these different words or whatever that I'm coming up with. But at the end of the day, don't none of that fully explain, you know, don't none of that hit to exactly who and what I am. So no label is something I'm fully attaching myself to. [02:05:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. I mean, it's. It's the. It's the witch came first, the chicken or the egg situation. Most of these things, including us, our bodies, how we show up in the world, they. They exist before any language has to even come into the situation. And I think even when we're talking about labels, and stuff like, I don't identify as queer. I think this idea that being trans automatically means you are like a queer. Like, it's just so. It's so many different things going on. [02:06:35] Speaker A: And we're not saying that labels don't matter at all. We're not saying that. [02:06:39] Speaker B: Let me say this to that person. What's wrong? Wrong with y'? All. Yeah, the comments are so. The people. [02:06:44] Speaker A: They're carrying, they're carrying tonight. [02:06:48] Speaker D: Ms. Queen, if you put this much energy into finding a human hair wig like you are in the comments, you would. You would be a very long way. [02:06:57] Speaker B: Sis. [02:06:58] Speaker D: Stop. I'm sorry, Aaron. I'm sorry. [02:07:02] Speaker B: I'm not even gonna. I. I will. [02:07:04] Speaker D: I will. I don't. I don't mind. [02:07:06] Speaker B: I don't mind. But my thing is this. A lot of this boils down to, for me is us trying to live in two worlds at the same time. Like, we want to live in the world where our labels and all of these things don't actually matter. We want to live in a world where you are seen and interacted with as a trans person them, without doing the things that trans people have been doing in this world forever to be recognized. The. The truth is, I keep saying, we tried this, it failed. I think we have to admit that this. We are the world failed. And now we have to just start keeping it a. Be like we are speaking to a target. We are not speaking to, to where we are. Like, the education and all of these things has not actually touched the soil for people. People are still very much going based off of how they see and experience a person, you know, and we have to be honest about that. Like, all of this, like, I can give you a full breakdown list of my identity labels and. And all of that type of stuff that don't mean shit to people. And I think the more that we. The more we talk around that, I think the more space we make for people who are full of shit and pretending that we are living now and the target that we are. [02:08:43] Speaker A: Absolutely. I think you really hit the nail on the head with that. I feel that we are being, you know, when somebody's not acting in good faith, we are acting in good faith with the fact that we're saying we know what you're saying. We know the theory and e. But the practical of what's happened, we're not there yet. They're not there yet. And we can't sit here and act like we are. So we do have to be specific about the things that we're trying to be specific about. [02:09:13] Speaker B: We have. [02:09:14] Speaker A: They are carrying in this comment section. [02:09:16] Speaker B: Maybe I might bring all of them up. [02:09:24] Speaker A: When white men showed up to the shores of the Americas, there were over a hundred genders and labels. Now we're trying to adjust to just two. Yes, exactly. [02:09:34] Speaker B: A broken clock. [02:09:38] Speaker D: Like the people that are academics and elite, they think they're the only ones that, that know that there are plenty of people in the hood, plenty of people who aren't rich, that have access to this knowledge too, that we, because they don't have degrees or stuff like that, we, we disregard their experiences all the time, every day. [02:10:03] Speaker A: Oh yeah, okay, so Mel was telling me that they did invite them to talk about those things. No, listen, you don't, you don't have to claim responsibility for no one and all the different things or whatever. We all appreciate all the energy here, here, because at the end of the day, no opportunity wasted. [02:10:18] Speaker B: Hello. [02:10:25] Speaker A: Wait, but, wait, but, but Brianna, But I want to say to you though, I do want to thank you because you are doing something and saying something that again, as black trans women, we are so often judged, critiqued. And just about we can't, I mean, we're over judged. We, we're over police, we do anything. People are ready to jump down our throats. But the thing, what I love about what you're saying is enough is enough because we are girls of a certain age and who have been in this community for a long time who are now like really experienced with different types of personalities within our community and all kind of things. And sometimes we do have to check folks, because I, I have been a little overnight in many, many ways. Even in my social media, people know I've been over nice because I'm trying to give people, you know, I'm trying to give them all the benefit of doubt. But the way that some of the girls be coming at me like I'm their friend, like I owe them, like they're entitled to certain things. When I'm, I'm offering an olive branch, I'm offering certain things. And some folks even try to. There's a lot of different things that go on and we need to get better at holding people's hands with love, you know, and let. But also doing that thing where we can re. You know, we used to be able to read and talk to each other in a way where the girls understood that. I'm not trying to break you down as a person. I'm telling you, no, the girls need the girls. [02:11:48] Speaker D: Me, they don't need you. To be nice to them. They need access to mental health services. And I'm not saying that to be shady or ableist ready to fight. That came from somewhere. And like zooming out, I see the fat phobic, the fat phobic stuff and a little colorist up. I'm going to pay that because you heard about something. What I will say is we not your enemies. Mama, you are in Tulsa, Oklahoma, where they are. Where they are the ground zero for the anti trans, the, the anti black. And you are sitting here proclaiming that you're a partner to a white man in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Sweetie, we should be the last of, of your concerns. And I really hope that the universe brings some. Something in, in your support orbit where you're able to process that and really deal with the realities of that on top of you trying to go to the DMV and having your experience at your dmv. But sweetie, we're not, we're not your enemies. That man that you laying next to, the white man, he's probably your enemy. That synthetic wig that was on top of your head when you came on your camera, whoever sold you that wig, that person's your enemy. But it's not us. So I, I'm going to, to let it slide. I really do wish you well, but we have to. What I don't like in community is how again, people feel like they are entitled to you because they, they look at you as this thing and they think that they're supposed to have this experience for you from you. And when you don't live up to what they think you are in their head, they think, they think it's okay to fight you, blast you and expose you. [02:13:30] Speaker A: You. [02:13:30] Speaker D: I'm not in the business of doing that to other black trans women, period. And even though I'm, I'm reading her and I'm king with her, I still want the best with her. [02:13:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:13:41] Speaker D: Oklahoma. [02:13:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:13:43] Speaker D: Because you're trying it, girl. But here with each other. And we should give each other the benefit of the doubt. But I'm going to read. That's just what we do. [02:13:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. [02:13:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [02:13:54] Speaker B: Don't. [02:13:54] Speaker D: Yeah, but you're not going to come in, my sister and think, think Brianna's not gonna have nothing to say about it. [02:14:02] Speaker B: I just have a very bitchy tone of voice. Yes. [02:14:06] Speaker A: And I love it. I absolutely love it. And we're going to definitely be hearing a lot more from Aaron Lang. Aaron Lang, you. We're gonna have you. We're working on some things behind the scenes. So I'm not. We're not going to talk about that right now, but I will. I would just say that, that people who know me know that even one of the reasons I'm doing things like this is to constantly I've been able to make space for my voice, my big ass, loud ass voice or whatever. And I'm just trying to share the mic because I know that I'm not the only one. And I'm not. And I'm not that girl who talks about not being the only one while also making sure she's the only one in the space. Do you understand what I'm saying? I am, am. I am that girl that literally says that and calls up the girls whenever there's a situation or ever there, ever there's, you know, what have you. So Brianna as well, I hope to have you continue to come on here and give your expertise because what I love about you as well, sis, is that you bring it from the streets to the courtroom like it's something. Again, people don't see you coming because they assume that we don't read books because some of the girls don't read books. [02:15:13] Speaker D: But. [02:15:14] Speaker A: And to be out here just about talking, talking, but this. But the thing is that some of us have read books, some of us go to college and even those that haven't read academic books, we get it some other way sometimes. [02:15:25] Speaker B: And sometimes the people in college don't know a thing but what they read in them damn books and can't think beyond that. [02:15:32] Speaker D: Right? And if you can't. And part of me being a lawyer, she can be. I'm going back to the comments. She can be realer than me and she wants to be better. My life is together on paper and that's all that matters. And when we're talking about the, the rain coming down on the girls, I have a little bit more insulation. So I'm. I ain't worried about none of that. My life is bad. But part of being a lawyer or being somebody that has access means that you have the responsibility to distill it so that even the layperson can understand what you're saying. If only you can speak in this high, this high in the sky thing. And the people on the ground don't get it and the people on the ground need to get it because there's more of them than there are of you. So what's the point of having all of this access to education if the people on the ground don't even know what the hell you're talking about and can't apply it to their real life. [02:16:25] Speaker B: Hello. And with all of that education, with all of that scholarship, not being able to say, hey, hey, maybe I could sit this conversation out or maybe I could moderate the conversation because I am so familiar with the source of this conversation. [02:16:46] Speaker D: Desirability. [02:16:47] Speaker B: And yes, all through this topic, instead of being on there and then saying Trump look. Looks at us all as. Because let me tell you something. If we all walked in front of Trump, right? [02:16:59] Speaker A: Because the reality is he's not gonna see. No, he's not. Absolutely not. That's not what he gonna see. I mean, and, and we, and we, and listen, we obviously, we understand that gender, beauty, all those are in the eye of the beholder. We all understand that we all can get called one on any given Sunday. I do understand that. But on, on a regular day on the 90 given north, and nobody's at no trans protest and doing nothing. I'm just going to get my groceries. They not, they don't see a. [02:17:33] Speaker D: But the thing is, even if I. [02:17:35] Speaker B: Do, but not in the way see. [02:17:38] Speaker D: They see that even if I get clocked or I get misgendered, as soon as you talk to me, as soon as you interact. Oh, excuse me, man. Because it's the spirit of a woman. It's the, the essence of a woman, and you might see something, but, but once you interact with me, it's, it's all about the spirit and it's all about the essence of what you're getting from me. [02:17:59] Speaker A: So, like, I think there have been people at times who have wanted to misgender me but couldn't. You know what I mean? Meaning, like, because they keep. They want to misgender you, and they, they, they calling you she on accident because they, they, they, they ain't nothing else they could do, right? Somebody asked in here, and I want to know what y' all think about this as well. Someone asked, can we unpack Laverne saying you make her feel un unsafe, but not the white maga. So I, So she. Basically what they're talking about is, you know, because I apologize to Laverne in my last live, you know, I was saying that like, you know, I know that I guess one of the reasons she put distance between us or that, you know, that things were like that is she said that I, you know, felt. Made her feel like she wasn't woke enough and made her feel, you know, like unsafe. Like, you know, and I, I, and, and what I, you know, I, what I'm saying is one, I'm just Going to own up to my own. I'm just going to own up to my own thing and say, if I'm making any one of my friends feel unsafe, that is not my intention ever, is to make someone feel unsafe. But I also pointed out that Quay was there when, you know, that particular. We had that one particular conversation. And anyone that knows me knows that. What am I doing? What do you mean, unsafe? Am I. I'm not a. You. I may have strong opinions, you know, but you might feel unsafe, though, if you want to hold on to certain things that, you know, you. That you know are problematic. [02:19:21] Speaker D: But you know what makes me feel unsafe? When I saw Laverne in that. That one video with the shortcut wig on that. [02:19:30] Speaker B: That. [02:19:30] Speaker D: That. That made me feel unsafe, you know? Well, it's like, no, you are caring. [02:19:37] Speaker A: With these wigs, girl. But, yeah, no, you weren't the only one who made a comment about that wig, though. [02:19:41] Speaker D: No, no, no. But no, we. We love Laverne. [02:19:43] Speaker A: We love it. We're just being here. Yes, yes. [02:19:46] Speaker D: I just. And I don't think. I don't think I got to get to this point. In the last video, nobody is saying, oh, you're with a white man. Go. Go and date black men. None of these men are safe. [02:20:00] Speaker B: What we. [02:20:01] Speaker D: But what we are choosing. Choosing black love, choosing black men. That's not going to make you. Us as women and femmes. That's not gonna make us any safe. Safer. None of these men are safe. And going back to. To the question, why. Why did. Why did she feel safer with the. [02:20:21] Speaker B: The. [02:20:22] Speaker D: The. The white mega man rather than her friend? That's the same question we have to add. We have to ask when it's a. When it's a black situation and the girlfriend is telling her, me, her friend, your man a. He ain't nothing. But the. The girl goes back to the man and then distance herself from her friend. Or. Or like, like, we're all in the system where, like, just like, we're. We're born to be transphobic. We're born to. We're born to be misogynistic to ourselves. We're born to. We're born to betray ourselves, to be close to a man rather than listening to ourselves, rather than prioritizing our relationships with other women, our sisters that really have our best interests at heart for the most part because of some hating. Like Ms. Thing in the comment with the blonde wig. [02:21:09] Speaker A: I see. I mean, she's staying in there. I mean, it's like, girl, if you don't want to. I mean, you is committed. [02:21:15] Speaker D: The thing I don't like about the Laverne situation is we all people act like they haven't done some form of that in their own lives. Maybe absolutely extreme, but we have. All for those of us who date men who have the affliction of being attracted to men, we all, at some point or another, have betrayed ourselves to be closer to a man. And you can go down the list of reasons for whatever you want to do it. For me, it was because I thought for the longest time me having a man made my womanhood more valid. And I put myself in a lot of situations I didn't need to be because I thought that that validated my realness until I came to the realization that no man is going to save me. No man is going to do every. But, like, we all have been there and coming at Laverne the way that people did, people refusing to see the humanity in her. And it wasn't like she was saying she was still with the man. It wasn't like she was saying, oh, I'm with him, and I voted for Trump, too. Like, there was a beginning, middle, and the end. But the way that people came at her and it's just like, okay, you don't see the humanity in her, but you also don't see the humanity in yourself, too, because we have all been in that situation before, whether or not folks want to admit it or not. [02:22:31] Speaker A: I. And that's why I shared my story that, you know, I have also been in a situation that I had to wake up to. Maybe it wasn't, you know, as maybe blatantly obvious, but. Yeah. What's that. [02:22:41] Speaker B: What's that, Aaron say before y' all move on? I. Was she saying you make her feel unsafe, or was she saying that what you were saying about her is portraying her as unsaved? [02:22:56] Speaker A: She was saying that I made her feel unsafe and on, like. Like basically that nothing. That basically I would be in perpetual judgment of her not being woke enough. But for me, it was just holding accountable to the simple fact that it was me, her, Janet, Mop, all kind of people. We on all different networks. You could turn the channel and we all talking this kind of talk, and then all of a sudden, you act like you don't know what we. I'm talking about. [02:23:24] Speaker D: I don't. And I'm sorry to cut you off, Aaron. [02:23:26] Speaker A: No, you're not coming off. [02:23:29] Speaker D: I don't. I wonder. I wonder if she said unsafe. But what I wonder is, does she really mean You're. Instead of making me feel unsafe, you're making. You're making me feel guilty because I'm choosing the thing that is. I'm doing the thing that is convenient. Yeah, it's a. It's a. So it's not necessarily. It's like you're holding a mirror to me, forcing to acknowledge. You're forcing me to acknowledge the thing that is, like, inconvenient that I. I don't want to acknowledge. So I'm. I'm just curious to know, like. Because if it was something where she truly felt unsafe with you, it's just like. Like, did the. Like, did the friendship or the. The interaction, like, cut off immediately after that? That. Or were there other interactions before it kind of trailed. [02:24:23] Speaker A: I think there were just multiple interactions for. For me and Laverne. Like, I think it just. And that's why I didn't want to have the conversation immediately. Originally, initially there, until I had talked to her and, like, had, like, a really heart to heart conversation, because it wasn't about her dating a white man. It was about her internalization of white. White. A white supremacy. It was the way that she was changing in front of my eyes to me to. To prioritize her privilege and career over the work that she came in talking. The talk that she came in talking about all of us being free and liberation for all of us now. And it was about her survival. But the thing is, is that I don't really appreciate people using words like survival in a Hollywood world. That's not survival. That's privileged privilege. Like, survival is what the girls are going through on the streets, trying to pay rent and trying to find a place to sleep. Survival in Hollywood is a different game. That's. That's you wanting to participate in privilege. I did not necessarily survive in that space because I did not want to play along with the things I'm talking to talking the things that it came with the cost. She knows very well that playing to whiteness, like she said in those previous times. So there are times I told her that that comes at the cost of cutting my feet off. Because sometimes we're talking about things and they're choosing your form of lightweight advocacy over this girl who's saying it this way. Just like there was a moment I spoke about where I felt Laverne was dead ass wrong for talking about a black trans woman who was speaking up about the just hilarious situation. I don't know if you remember, there was a black trans woman who just went in and was saying, you don't own womanhood to just hilarious. You don't own womanhood, and you don't own the experience of assist. Women don't own womanhood, and they don't own the experience of having periods. Now, she didn't say that she was having the periods and blah, blah. She was just speaking facts on behalf of trans men. But then Laverne comes in and does this whole post and everything, and she kind of, you lets, like, says something that, like, undermines where the girl is coming from and. And all this thing. And I'm like. And I commented under that post, and I said, well, good thing there's more than one way to fry a fish or something. Like, I said, it's like, good thing there's more than one way. And I just. After a while, after a certain time, I'm not trying to yuck anybody's yum, you know, I. I remember Impose. There's a line that angel says that Indy Moore says when Pray Tell is trying to get them to all to go down to the protest. And it's like, what y' all need to be, you know, she's like, well, I got a. A modeling gig, you know, the next day or something. She had something going on. He was like, you need to be doing it. She was like, so what? I. I can't. We all being chased by the same demon. I can't stop and, you know, I guess experience something nice for myself or whatever, that. That sort of line. And I, I understood sort of the space of we're all under such whatever. It's understandable that we would want to have moments where we experience, you know, certain things. But I just, I want. I want Laverne. Like, when Laverne. Before I was famous, I was one of the producers of the trans 100 that we had in Chicago. Yes. And Laverne Cox came to be the speaker at the first year. This was her fresh about to be in Orange's new black. Now, mind you, like, some people saw her as the celebrity and all the different things. Yeah. She had just did, I think, season one or it was on or something. And I made sure, as one of the producers, I made sure that she felt like the star that she was. I made sure she ate them when we had the smoke. She had her own room. I was like, I was just doing all the things to make her feel like the star, because she is. She was our star, you know, in the. In the community. I want girls to get their things and to, you know, to get their rewards and whatever Every success that Janet Mock had, I success, I celebrated like it was my own, because I knew that this was only going to do great for. Open up doors for our community and different things. And I'm a smart. I'm going to open up my own opportunities. So I never asked them for. For anything. The only thing that I expected was that as black trans women who have been in this movement, going to. Creating change, doing all these different things, and no, we've been at the bottom of the totem pole, so we've had to learn intersectionality in ways that other people don't even understand it. So I did not understand how somebody was talking. This talk with me all of a sudden was moving in an individualistic way. She was. Was saying words like, you know, we want to open these doors and diversity and make sure that I'm not the only one. But she was also moving in ways that I felt like was ensuring she was the only one. And so for me, I kept calling Laverne, and I told Laverne, kept calling her different times with different scripts, different show ideas, different things that I thought, maybe we should come together, do this, do that. She could never see how we would come together. So, like, at some point, I felt like she don't even see me as a colleague. Like, and. And, girl, if we in the same rooms and acting in the same things, girl. All I'm saying is we colleagues, right? I bring. I bring it to the set. You bring what you bring. I'm bringing it to the set. So we are colleagues. And I have executive produced things that have had four daytime Emmy nominations with King Esther. So to. To not see me as somebody that you could executive produce things with and create things with. On the level, but you still here by yourself. So now that Hollywood has now closed the door on you too, like, I left, I said, if this is the way y' all gonna be, call me when you ready. Call me when you want to be serious about some. About this, that, and third, until then, I'll go find something else to do with my time. I'll go find something else. Now, they're not ex now. They're not even seeing Laverne right now. So now she's tapping on the community door. [02:30:34] Speaker D: I wanna. I want to ask a question somebody put in the comment, and I'm curious to know the answer to this. [02:30:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:30:40] Speaker D: Aaron, why did you have to read Clean Slate off the bone? [02:30:49] Speaker B: Okay. [02:30:50] Speaker D: I don't know the answer to that. [02:30:53] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. First off, I want to say, wow, the girls, right? To all of that. But I read Clean Slate off the bone because before I am a lot of things. I'm a consumer of media. I grew up in front of a television. I. I grew up on the computer. You know, I have a dark sense of humor. I can really enjoy just, you know, a wide array of different types of genres and all and what have you. One of the genres I do love and. Or have loved or grew up loving was the sitcom. I am very familiar with all in the Family and the Jefferson. Jefferson's and Norman Lear's work. Norman Lear, even though, you know, he allegedly stole from a black man, which makes sense, because good times. Where the hell did he come up with good times? But Norman Lear was putting out content in the world that spoke to the condition via people like Archie Bunker, you know, being this kind of polarizing figure that got to speak to. Got to speak from the perspective that people maybe thought they understood, but really did it. So, you know, the Jeffersons, in my opinion, still has one of the most, if not the most culturally competent episodes about trans women. [02:32:28] Speaker A: They were ahead of their time. [02:32:29] Speaker B: Yes, to this day, like that episode, they did such a beautiful job of explaining things without outright saying it. So when Laverne and Norman Lear, when it was first announced that Laverne was going to do a show where she is like the long lost child come back, you know, transition, getting with her black father, I was like, this is literally going to be phenomenal. Like, absolutely phenomenal. I was like, this. The. The scholarship, the conversation. So much could come out of this story. I saw Clean Slay and I wanted to cry. Look, I'm not gonna read Lavert, but it is the. For me, I was like, first off, this is not a black show. It's black people in this show, but this is not a black show. It didn't. It felt like Disney Channel trans. It just. It was a joke because, I mean, it felt. [02:33:47] Speaker A: It was a. It felt like, to me, like a white, green lit show. Meaning, like. And she got her show. She got her show. Right, but from the white people. [02:33:57] Speaker B: No, no, black trans people in the writers room. I was confused. Like, I just. It. To me, it was like the last. You know, when they're, like showing, like from inside the coffin where they're hitting the nail. [02:34:14] Speaker A: It was the last nail, Reese. [02:34:16] Speaker B: I was like that. To me, let me know. Know more than anything that the trans wave had passed. You know, it was so. It was so. There was nothing risky about Clean Slate. There was nothing that challenged introspection with Clean Slate. And to me, the subject matter demanded that. So the fact that. Fact that the actual series was some weird thing and Laverne was like popping for some like white dude with a up haircut. And like we had to watch some white dude and his like white. Like, it just was like, what the. This is like, I. I'm so sick. And this was even a gripe of mine with pose like where I'm like in the beginning hbo look, I'm sick of the TV ma and stuff. We're not talking about that is. [02:35:15] Speaker A: Well, that's why did you see Venino? [02:35:18] Speaker B: Oh, Veno is. [02:35:21] Speaker A: Made pose look like a Disney show. [02:35:24] Speaker B: Pose made pose look like a Disney show. Yeah. [02:35:27] Speaker D: Live banana was tea. [02:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Because. Because ballroom van was tea. Ballroom. To me, like, oh my gosh, this is hbo. This is like we can get into it. We can throw a little power in there. We can throw a little the girls power. [02:35:46] Speaker A: Cuz girl. Cuz girls. The girls and the boys be going to jail over some real stuff. [02:35:51] Speaker B: Like there is scamry, there is murder, there is sex. There is like, this is not tv, Ma. And you know, it goes back to my read of Clean Slate. Is this. This desire to sanitize that which cannot be sanitized. Like our experiences, our stuff with our families. This is not like fodder for Disney Channel. Like, this is. We gotta take it there. [02:36:19] Speaker A: I agree. [02:36:20] Speaker B: Would have opened that door and said. [02:36:23] Speaker A: Can you see that? That's what they were going. Is that they felt like they were going to bring this conversation into the middle. Middle America's living room with this show. [02:36:33] Speaker B: That boy. It was. And it was hollow. Clean Slate was extremely hollow. I absolutely knew we would not be seeing a season two because I could barely make it through season one. Who the fuck would want to see it? What. What even is the. The second season of this? I felt like with Clean Slate and this is also a thing because I'm one of the girls. I didn't read Clean Slate off the bone. I'm a consumer. I gave a review of something I watched like. And that is the beauty of more trans people being able to create is I don't have to say, wow, that was amazing. I could say what the girl. [02:37:16] Speaker A: Cuz that's. That that actually came up in my conversation that will come later with Jordan J. Who is the founder of btfa. Yes. And in my conversation with Jordan, Jordan basically said that we need to get it to the place where black trans people can make bad art. [02:37:43] Speaker B: Well. [02:37:43] Speaker A: And that there be more and more opportunities for Us to grow from that because, you know, again, white people get to make bad stuff and keep going and keep going. When we have a black show, when we have a trans show, everything is riding on that show to be successful. We can't have a bad show. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, I will say, like, as a consumer as well, you know, I, I, I definitely just. I wanted to support, you know, so I definitely, I watched it to support especially, you know, coming up for Emmys and things like that. That. But, no, but I, but I, you know, if I, you know, just to be honest, like, it definitely. It, it was a disappointment to me as well. Like, it wasn't. It didn't hit where I thought it could hit. It wasn't for me. I was. That's the other. That is the other thing. Who was the audience, baby. [02:38:34] Speaker D: The. [02:38:35] Speaker B: So watch the Jennifer Hudson show. You were a singer, really? No. [02:38:47] Speaker A: Y' all not gonna do her like that. [02:38:49] Speaker B: The J. Hood crowd. That was the Passions crowd. That was the Passions used to be my. [02:38:55] Speaker A: Now we're not gonna come for Passions. Passions was the soap opera Honey, Teresa. [02:39:04] Speaker D: Teresa and Ethan. So for me, the highlights of Clean now, I'm not gonna lie, I'm somebody that binger shows a lot. It was very hard to get through those first two episodes because it just. Something was missing. The highlights of Clean Slate to me were George Wallace and Thelma Hopkins. I feel like Thelma Hopkins does not get the flowers that she deserves, but I feel like their season. I don't want to. I'm not reading Laverne. I am. I hope. I am hopeful that because of this journey that she's on, that in some of the roles she takes, that she's able to go deeper. [02:39:44] Speaker A: She. [02:39:45] Speaker D: Laverne has this thing where everything is just for my opinion. I'm not reading there. Everything is just over the top. And I'm a trans woman, and you can accept me. [02:39:58] Speaker B: And I'm like, Like, sis, like, unfollow me. She just followed me, damn it. [02:40:06] Speaker D: I'm saying this is somebody that is going to support her, that wants to support her. That. What that watches tv. It, like, every character is the same. It's the same. [02:40:19] Speaker B: It's the same voice. [02:40:21] Speaker D: It's the same blonde wig. It's like. [02:40:23] Speaker B: It's role of hers was inventing Anna, though. [02:40:28] Speaker D: Oh. When she played the, The. [02:40:30] Speaker B: The gym instructor, I feel like she ate that. [02:40:34] Speaker D: But it was still her lanisms in there. It was still her. It was. But at least she got to have a Black man as a love interest in it. [02:40:43] Speaker A: Well, I will say this regardless of what you think about it. I'll say this regardless of what you think about if. Here's the situation. Laverne stayed booked, and Laverne's from. From the Uglies to, like, all kind of. [02:41:01] Speaker B: I loved her in the Uglies. [02:41:03] Speaker A: Now, I will say I hated that movie, but I thought that she was the best thing about it. Like, she looked beautiful. She. Laverne is one of our. [02:41:13] Speaker D: We want to see Laverne have the roles and have the range. Like, Angelica, we want to see you. You, like, have the rank and look. Angela, we've seen you do, like, you were literally a alien in American Horse. Like, I want that for. Look, I want. Like, I want to see you as the Meryl Streep, but it's just like, everything is given is given. Like. Like drag queen. Like. [02:41:39] Speaker A: But can we. Can. Can I. Can I call out something without being called a hater? [02:41:45] Speaker B: We have. [02:41:45] Speaker D: We have a grown woman discussion, okay? [02:41:48] Speaker A: So we've already talked about what it means to cater to whiteness. So we know that our country loves symbols of change versus actually giving y' all what y' all want. And so I feel so. I feel so often we get situations, and I felt like this was a situation with Laverne where Laverne became a symbol for the trans community. And it was a. It was like everywhere. It was like, that's how you knew transness. Laverne, trans, you know, and it was like, you could see it coming. And so she seemed to have a lot of opportunities, whether the acting is good or bad with. Whether you think it's that, but it is also her ability to navigate those spaces. I think part of that business, part of what we have to understand about that business is it's also about are you willing to go along with things? You know what I'm saying? Like, can you. Can you just shut up about white supremacy for five seconds? You know what I'm saying? Or whatever. And so I don't think it always came down to the best actor. I think. I think it came down to a lot of times Laverne's moving in the space. She's got to deal with the E. Network that they gonna develop, you know, certain things with her. She's doing her thing. She's had a talk show. We're. We're, you know, a bl. You know, all these different. All these different things. And folks, meanwhile, trans people are still being berated, still. Still being made a fool out still being killed and still being all these things. But how Hollywood and folks want to make the symbol like Barack Obama. What do you mean racism's over? You have a black president, and apparently Laverne is supposed to be the president of the trans community. And when. When folks are like, you know, to me there was a trade off. And to me, I always put it like this with what's her name, Ariel from the Little Mermaid. I really feel like it was some trickery that goes on when it comes to us as black trans people, people who have, you know, powerful voices. The system always wants to co opt your voice. They always want to co opt it. And you and I had the audacity to think that my voice is more valuable on its own than co opted by whoever Ryan Murphy or whoever wants to have this thing. So. So I feel like in order to be a part of Hollywood, you have to trade in your voice to be a part of that world. And then they give you something back that seems like it fits, you know, or whatever it goes with the thing. But you can't say that. Don't talk about this, don't do this, and don't go that you automatically know. She automatically knew that she had to stop talking about certain things. Things. So all I'm saying is, is that there were conscious choices that were made that were not about full liberation, but more about my ability to participate. [02:44:54] Speaker B: Right. I literally. I'm thinking of all of this and I. And I like her being a symbol especially. I think it's. I think it's so unfair what we are expected to do because of who we are, you know, And I think Laverne. Laverne didn't have to speak out in the way she did ever. You know, Laverne could have just rocked it, like. Yeah. And just kept going. Because I imagine that it probably sucks to just want to act, you know, Like, I just want to be an actress and I get a breakout role, you know, and it's like, okay, but now I can't just be an actress. I gotta be like TS President Cox. And now they about to put me in every TS role they can imagine. But I still not going to be able to. Like, have we seen besides clean slate? Like, Laverne actually put out something that feels real and, like, has like the depth that she so clearly has. I don't think so. [02:46:20] Speaker A: No, but, but I mean, but, but also. I hear what you're saying there, but this is where I interject because I'm like, I think that somehow because of I. I think, thinks for some reason, people must think I don't love acting enough, I don't respect my craft enough, that I don't want to be an actor enough. And it's not that you understand the game. [02:46:42] Speaker D: You understand the game under. It's just not about. It's just because your, Your, Your art can't feed you. You have to. You either have to navigate in the game, or you have to get out and figure out how. How to make it. How to transgress it and make it work for you. [02:46:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I love acting. I love it. I'm talking about the most I love is being on stage because it's so live and real and people can hear my breath, you know, in the silence and different thing when I did Roxy, you know what I'm saying? Like, and just in those silent moments before I started crying, all these are like, I love acting so much, but I now know that, that my privileges won't protect me. And they're like, therefore, all the things that now people, they were shutting up in Hollywood, they're afraid now everybody. No, ain't nobody making money, and now everybody got to speak up and blah, blah, blah. But it's like your character and integrity are tested in times to show what you really are about. And it's not, It's. I feel like, to me, it's less of a judgment and more of an observation. Yeah, I agree, because I'm really trying not to come down on the judge. It's more about, do you think you're the only one that loves to act? [02:47:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That I, I, I definitely. Yeah, I agree with that. And, you know, we've talked about integrity. The price of integrity, the price of being willing to be like, I see what's going on here, and I'm gonna say that, you know, or I'm not gonna go along with you all. So now I can't go. So now I can't go at all anymore, you know, because I'm not willing to fake the funk. There is, I mean, there is something to be said about that having to be the choice, you know, and absolutely. [02:48:38] Speaker A: We should be able to be free. [02:48:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And thinking that making the choice will work out for you. There are a few people that come to mind, you know, with this thinking that if I am alone, you know, I can do it alone. I could do it or whatever. And they like, the same way you've been in here alone, they're gonna throw you outside alone, you know, so, Yeah, I, I see that. I see that. I Think I just. I don't know. I think maybe, you know, Laverne just followed me, so I got, you know, I got a little more, I think, maybe grace for her. [02:49:12] Speaker A: YouTube Academia says you have the capability of being a trans Angela Bassett. Yet you've never heard a political utterance from Bassett. You want to act or be MLK? It's a hard game. [02:49:22] Speaker B: Okay, is this YouTube academia in this George Washington wig? Because if so, it's a troll. [02:49:30] Speaker D: It's a troll. It's a troll. [02:49:31] Speaker A: I mean, listen, I'll. I'll just respond to that by saying that this. This is why I think it's beyond time that we have a real conversation about the difference between black liberation and the concept we're being sold of black excellence. Because there are so many celebrities and stars selling y' all pictures of black excellence as if we've made it somewhere. We've done some things. And the reality is they made it somewhere. They got through the doors, and they are operating in a way to make sure they can stay in those good graces and telling everybody behind them, like Steve Harvey told Monique on the. On his show, well, we can't do this. And, you know, you got to do this this way. Wait, I thought we was. What was we doing this for? I thought we was doing this for liberation. Now we doing this just to hold on to a piece. And that's what this is about, is most people in this game are. That's why nobody's been speaking up about all this stuff, is because everybody's trying to hold. We're not liberal. Nobody's free. Nobody's actually really free. [02:50:39] Speaker D: And that's why nobody's speaking up about Eiler Toga Airy Paga. Because it's a. Like this. Like it. Like, no shade, all of this, the black liberation stuff. Like, it's important. But until we have a real conversation about capitalism and how capitalism works, because all of us feel like we could be rich one day. That's why we're willing to. When we get the money or when we think we're going to get the money, we shed all of our identity politics, and it's no longer about us feeling like we're black or us feeling like we're trans or us feeling like we're queer. And it's about us. Us feeling. Us being rich or thinking that we're rich and creating validation with our other rich friends. That's why it was so many of black folks that voted maga. That's why it was so many gay that Voted maga. Like we have to have a conversation about classism and how insidious it is because people know as long as they spout out black excellence or support everybody black. They know that we see ourselves in them, but they don't necessarily see ourselves in us and they're willing to exploit us every single time. Every single time. So until we are talking about capitalism and how people are willing to sell other black people down the river to make a profit, then, then all of this liberation and liberation. And I have to check capitalism, how it shows up in me because I'm a bit chill. I like nice things. I like luxury experiences sometimes. But I don't want it at the expense of somebody else or I don't want it when the money could be shared evenly so everybody gets a piece. So nobody has to suffer. But in capitalism, somebody has to suffer. Somebody has to be on the bottom when it can be spread evenly and we can all have it. But just, just this blindly believing that black people, especially black celebrities, have our best interests at heart. In 2025, when we've seen how a lot of them have been abusive with their money, Eddie Dogger. [02:52:47] Speaker A: And not just with their money, they're abusive with the people in their lives, right? [02:52:51] Speaker D: So like we, like, we really have to have a conversation about how just, just betting on black with, with no value assessment or no really checking people's values, how that is harmful to us as well. And also I want to put this in because they're about to consider overturning Obergefell. I don't want to hear nothing from gay talking about we need to come together and we put. Need to put differences aside. Because when same sex marriage became laws of the land, a lot of y' all said the movement, y' all took your money out of these equality organizations. I was in Maryland. Equality Maryland shuttered because people took their money out of the organizations. And they said all of the racial work that y' all doing, we got our. We. Our civil rights are over. And a lot of y' all asses became Republicans. I started voting Republicans. And we were at the Supreme Court last year. It was a group of y' all that have an organization called Gays Against Grooming. So when y' all lose y' all same sex marriage and all your rights get away. Don't look to black trans woman to carry the labor or to give you all the talking points, points to try to get it back. Because, yo, because y' all thought y' all money would insulate y' all and save y' all. [02:54:06] Speaker A: I mean, I'm gonna still be here in the fight and all the different things, but I'm just not gonna be fooled to be in the front row with HRC knowing that they. Not. They don't really see it for none of us like that. I know that Alonzo David, I think when he, you know, when he became the Alfonso David, when he. One of the things I, When I met with him, he. One of the things he told me right away was they took their money. Like, so when the black man came up in there, the, the white gay, married, everything, they took their money and ran. So they weren't, you know, getting those same things. And, and I'll. And I'll say this. And we. And I'm gonna shut this down too, because, you know, these organizations aren't in our best interest lately either. What's that? [02:54:48] Speaker B: I was about to say, can I jump in somewhere before you. Yeah, come on. I know. I keep trying not to interrupt, you know. [02:54:55] Speaker A: No, please do. Yes. [02:54:58] Speaker B: I was, I was gonna say, you know, the target is always our imagination. That is what we have to. That's what we have to rebuild for people is. Is the ability to imagine something beyond what we are now navigating. I think even before capitalism. And I, I think we're all unserious first. That's where I start, right? I start with we're all unserious. I think it is so much easier for us to share our thoughts and our things and to really be in. In it. I'm talking about in it. Yes. You know, I really think we don't think about our planet. We don't actually think about our relationships as human beings to the planet. We're talking about all of these things in the future. And I'm constantly like, it's very hot this summer. It's hotter this summer than it was two summers ago. And two summers ago it was hot as fuck. It was. I'm like, we are. We don't have the time that we think we have. I was at a family reunion and a family member was like, you know, the Earth isn't going to be here. And I was like, the Earth is not going anywhere. Our ability to live on the Earth is what is going right. And I don't think we're taking any of that seriously. And one of the biggest things, you know, that we were doomed. Just kidding. But not really was the, yes, we are so. We are so, like, I mean, fat off of comfort to the point that wearing masks, even the left. I will never, ever Forget how the left was justifying not masking, was justifying stopping virtual events. When disabled people said, like, this is the first time we're able to really engage in these spaces because y' all are. Now. There are now. What is the word I'm looking for? Accommodation. [02:57:29] Speaker A: Accommodations. [02:57:29] Speaker B: Yes, now. Accommodations for us to be in the room. People didn't want to continue masking. People didn't even want to imagine. What could it look like for us to live in a world where a virus like this won't destroy us. What kind of things do we need to shift? I was in a movie theater, like, damn, it's been a whole pandemic. We can't get an exhaust fan or shit going out outside. You know, I. There are things that we skip over in pursuit of. I'm not saying this about any of. [02:58:05] Speaker A: No, but I get you. [02:58:07] Speaker B: This. These things. I lost it. I'm so sorry, y'. [02:58:11] Speaker A: All. The accommodations. No, but you're, You're. I, I hear what you're saying is that you're saying that, you know, we. You knew that basically even as we are looking at each other, like, are we about to do something, like, because fascism is rolling in or whatever. And the reality is, like you said, people have gotten too comfortable off comfort and they will not trade it for the world. And what people do not know is that they know this. They've sold you your comfort. They're keep their. Hey, what you want. What else can we get you to stay there, there and just shut up and just let us do what we're doing? So it. With the. So the key is getting uncomfortable. [02:58:52] Speaker D: But. But comfort is the hallmark of being American. That's the hallmark of being American. We. We. We can't live without our comforts. [02:59:01] Speaker B: And we have. And that. And that is, to me, like, Larry, from that last night, is saying in the comments, I think it's common sense that people have lost. I've seen that a lot. And you know, Mariame Kaba said something that completely blew my mind. She was like, we shape the common sense. Common sense is not just something that people have. We shape the common sense. And I wonder, like, how are we preparing people for loss and how are we building up our ability to risk. Risk things that we never felt we would have to risk. We still want to live alone. You know, we still. We still want to be at the top of our careers. We still want the. The spoils that this place has to offer. And that's even us on this call. So I think reading the. [02:59:58] Speaker D: Out of me. [03:00:01] Speaker A: But I. I get what you're saying. I. Listen, I've been in a different. A different place for a long time because I've always told the girls, why do you think them white people and friends was living together? You can't, like, you can't start out and think that you're gonna have a love seat in a dining room table. Who you inviting, sis? What food is you buying, sis? Like, when in this market you need roommates and stuff in the beginning and things like that. But we can't get along with each other long enough to be roommates with each other, you know, have to. [03:00:29] Speaker B: Because. Right, because the idea is that we shouldn't have to. There are 70 of us here. We all need 70 homes. We need 70 individual homes. And we need the car Blanche, to say what we want to happen on all of those. Like, we are not prepared to lose this place. And I think that is why I always have grace, you know, for those of us who are maybe failing more visibly because there are ways that all of us have traded in, you know, our. Our actual. I don't know. I keep losing words. [03:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. We traded in our power for. For something that is. Is really less than what we. In exchange. Yeah. [03:01:15] Speaker B: Yes, because. And. And that is the thing. So for me, you know, it is. It is. It's easy for us. Us to know things. You know, it's easy for us to have an understanding of things. But when it comes to the nitty gritty, when they say the air is toxic, y' all need to mask, not just to protect yourself, but to protect your children. And they. They friend at school and they parents and people said, I want no parks. I can't breathe in a mask. [03:01:54] Speaker A: Right. [03:01:54] Speaker B: It's not about you, though. [03:01:56] Speaker A: Right? [03:01:57] Speaker B: We couldn't. We couldn't land on that. So for me, I'm like, we are a deeply unserious population of people drunk off of our own knowledge, written in books that the government has allowed to even be available to. To us. And I think this is a moment that every single one of us, we have to really sit with the reality of this time and what we are really, really willing to lose. It's not just love and maga, dick. It's a lot of stuff that we have to say. I am okay with losing this. [03:02:39] Speaker A: For. [03:02:41] Speaker B: Once there wasn't something. Something yonder. Whatever. I couldn't remember the song. I'm malfunctioning. Y' all forgive me? No, you're good. [03:02:48] Speaker A: You good. [03:02:50] Speaker B: Yes. What did she say to get Back home more. Once there was a way to get back home more from that movie. Sing Jennifer Hudson. She was like a hippo or something. It was beautiful. But she was talking about getting home more like if we really. If the destination is really living liberation, we got to be willing to run like we do if the house is on fire. No, you ain't grabbing your favorite slippers. You run it. We're getting out of here, and I don't think any of us are really there yet. And I think we have to be willing to quit playing these games about who postures the best. [03:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [03:03:32] Speaker B: At the end of the day, it is about what are we really, really willing to risk for what it is we talk about. We have been having conversations. I love to talk, even though I'm malfunctioning. [03:03:45] Speaker A: No, listen, listen, though. Listen. And I need to, I need to, I need to moderate this because every time, every time I go over like this, then I have to wait because we've gone three hours and they, they take a long time to process the situation. Luckily, luckily I'm. I'm recording locally, so I'm going to have my stuff at a fingertips. So I, I did write this time and hit record locally, so I'm good. But no, this has been a dynamic conversation. We obviously hit so many different topics in one night. We. This just means that you girls have got to come back and we, we've got to, you know, so when we, when we're talking about some of the other issues, I got to tap, tap you girls in because I think like you said, we. And also people need to see us and understand that we, like you're talking to. You got a lawyer over here. You got somebody in social justice and movements that are not just about trans issues that have been involved in so many different things. So we're not just expertise or experience in trans issues. We're experiencing multiple things in the movement. And so that's what I'm here to do as well, is like lift your authority in all other conversations as well. So I hope to have you back chiming in on all the things. [03:04:48] Speaker B: Of course, have me back. [03:04:52] Speaker A: Thank you both for joining me tonight and keeping it real and also for defending the girl as well. You know, things got a little rowdy out there. Thank you so much. Yes, we love you, girl. Get there. Yes. Okay, so, so, so I'm going to remove the girls from the, the chat, but thank you so much, everyone. This was such an amazing conversation. I did not get to really, like, show off a little bit and show you like my different camera angles that I had set up here but don't worry because I had those cameras recording the whole time so I'm probably going to mix in a couple of those angles when I go to actually edit the footage. That is all for us tonight. We have talked a lot. Queen you stayed to the end of the show for a shady. For a shady. You stayed here for me. You, you you must love this shady because you stayed the entire show and was in that comment section very, very active. I appreciate you doing all those things but I would like for you to slow down a little bit and take more responsibility for how you're showing up and stop projecting onto other people because there's no shade that was intended with you when you initially came on but you definitely brought some energy on there that was not created by this, this platform. So thank you all. We will talk with you all soon. Have a great evening. We will see you all next week. [03:06:34] Speaker B: I.