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[00:00:47] Speaker B: Welcome back to now, no Opportunity Wasted. I'm your host Angelica Ross and my conversation with Keith Boykin, author of why Does Everything have To Be About Race? Was so amazing last week that we had to break it into two episodes. So today we're going to be jumping right back in where we left off. But before we do, I want to start things off with a word from Buddhism. Day by Day Wisdom for Modern Life by Daisaku Ikeda Today is Friday, May 24th and the quote says, quote the ultimate and most glorious of human relationships is the relationship of spiritual successors. Even animals have relationships of parent and child. There are animals that share partnerships similar to marriage, and even those that enjoy friendships. However, the relationship of mentor and disciple of spiritual successors exists only amongst human beings. End quote. And yes, I am very grateful for those who have been spiritual mentors for me, not only by what they shared with me, but also by being able to witness how they grow spiritually has been so invaluable to me. I grew up in a household that was all about do as I say, not as I do. So I didn't really get to see a lot of practicing what you preach, but now I get to experience a spiritual practice that's all about actual proof. Because honey, if it wasn't working for me, how am I going to possibly inspire anybody else to practice? So yes, Buddhism has given me an amazing perspective on life, but moreover, it has given me the ability to respond to my life's opportunities and challenges head on.
Now I'm sure that you have seen.
[00:02:36] Speaker C: Or heard by now the dragging of.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Marjorie Taylor Greene after she made comments about Representative Jasmine's lashes that were inappropriate. And then Jasmine went on to make.
[00:02:48] Speaker C: A point and asked the room that.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: If she talked about someone's bleach blonde, bad built body, would that be engaging in unprofessional behavior.
[00:02:59] Speaker C: And that part child had me on the floor.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Especially when one of the white male representatives said a What now, baby?
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Listen, as much as I enjoy a.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Good dragging, I have to agree with some of the other folks who pointed out that we can drag and read and put people in their place without having to resort to body shaming that unintentionally ends up having a lot of.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Badly built butch bodies catching some strays that, that weren't meant for them, you know.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: And also, butch bodies are beautiful. Amen. I love them, you know. So Representative Jasmine Crockett, who I'm still a fan of, but listen, I heard that you're moving to trademark the phrase and I just want to say, please think twice about that. Let's just learn from the moment and move on.
Now the unfortunate part about all of this is folks who can't seem to see anti blackness and racially motivated incidents.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: For what they are.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: So I think it's really important that we jump back into this conversation with Keith Boykin on why does everything have to be about race? Take a listen.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: Well, before I let you go, we are coming up on election season.
I, you know, I love that you acknowledge that again, voting isn't the only thing we can do, but it for damn sure is one of the things we should be doing because it's, for me, it's just a way to be counted. Now listen, I'm having issue right now with, with Biden. And you know, and my issue is, listen, I heard a white man on tv. I think he was a former Trump.
He was he. And he wrote a book, I forget his name. He wrote a book and he's kind of like warning people about, you know, sort of a Trump presidency. And he said that like warning us literally things could get really, really bad if Trump is in office. But also saying due to his own morality and spiritual, you know, whatever, his own code of doing things that he cannot, he cannot violate his own principles to vote for Joe Biden.
And what I realized in that moment is that really is another privilege that is kind of only afforded to white people where they can say that and feel that without there being any real repercussion on their lives. Because do you know that I'm standing in a place where I'm saying I don't want to violate my conscience. I, I don't want to violate what I feel is non negotiable.
I have very real issue with our president in this thing and I'm about accountability and conversation. So I'm not saying it's all over, but we going to talk about this all the way to the ballot box and then when we get to the ballot box, I'm going to be honest, y'all people, I talk a lot, I talk a lot of stuff.
But I'm going to be honest as I feel right now.
I'm going to be having these tough conversations and asking the real questions. But if, if, because I don't know what's going to happen between now and the ballot, I'm praying that they swap that man out. I'm praying that, you know, a bunch of things happen. I'm praying that Trump goes to jail for any of the 91 charges or whatever that he's up against. I'm praying something different. But if we end up November, whatever that Tuesday is, and we've got Joe Biden and Trump as a rematch, which we will.
Which we will.
I'm just telling y'all, I love to stand on business.
I love to stand on what I know and what I feel, but I don't feel I have the privilege to do so. And, and, and, and so I, I, you know, again, I'm telling you, I'm fighting with you. I'm trying to ask the questions. I'm trying to do the things, too. But at the end of the day, when it comes to the, to voting, I know I don't have the same privilege to sit well with my feelings as that white man that was talking on tv.
[00:07:26] Speaker D: Well, you know, I think you said something really important here, which is that accountability is a key part of our, our citizen duty, that we can't just vote every four years and think we've done our duty. The other part of it is you have to hold our leaders accountable whether you vote for them or not. And sometimes even more important that you do it when you do vote for them because they're more likely to listen to you. But you don't just vote for somebody and say, well, he's on my team, so I'm never going to complain or criticize him. No, I voted for Barack Obama in both of his elections. I didn't agree with him on several issues, and I publicly said that he didn't support gay marriage when he first came into office. I disagreed with him on that. He supported this whole thing about the drone policy, that he was using drones, and I didn't support him that. And I said publicly, I disagree with that.
You know, I voted for Bill Clinton twice, and I didn't agree with him on a lot of issues. The crime bill, the welfare reform bill. He signed the Defense of Marriage act, which set us back a decade.
And so a lot of it is a strategic calculation you're making, because the one thing that the candidates do do, one of the most important things I think the president of the United States does to and has the most lasting impact. The reason why I. I say this as a lawyer, because this is really critical for me, but not just for me, for others, is they appoint judges. They appoint the Judges on the U.S. supreme Court and the judges all throughout the federal judiciary. So anything, absolutely anything that you want to get accomplished, whether any kind of progressive agenda or affects black people or LGBTQI people or any other group of people, anything you want to get accomplished has to get approved by the courts at some levels. It's got. Somebody's going to sue and they're going to challenge it, and there has to be judges in place who are going to say yes or no. And that's incredibly important right now. Trump has appointed three of the judges on the US Supreme Court, and there are only nine judges. That's a third of the judges on the Supreme Court were appointed by Donald Trump.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: So was one of the things you might not agree with, because this is one of the things I tackle with as well under Obama, is like, Trump stacked that course, that court, knowing what things were. And Ruth Bader Ginsburg was.
Why not in the. In your presidency, why wouldn't y'all team up to make a move for the country?
[00:09:47] Speaker D: Yeah, that was. That was. That was a bad move on her part. I think she probably didn't think she was gonna die, but who knows when they're gonna die, you know, so, of course.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: But like you said, these lifelong appointments and things like that are just. Should be a thing. And then when you talk about a president being able to appoint judges, I want to just connect a couple dots here, because there was re. And I don't know, because again, I'm coming to you. I love having this kind of conversation with you because I do know a lot and different things or whatever, but there's also a lot of things I'm just ignorant on. And I don't know. And I know that might be. Maybe some people might have the same sort of perspective I have. So recently in Texas, there was. Right. I think it was Texas, that there was a court case with the girl who had the miscarriage, and they were trying to prosecute her, and it had to go all the way up to the Supreme Court.
I think this is. My understanding is. This is my overall understanding is. But what I'm trying to get at is she was dealing with local, local courts, legal stuff. And then had to go to the Supreme Court with this. So there was a local judge here in Texas making sort of like being over this. And what I'm trying to ask is I heard word on the street was that Joe Biden, as a favor to Mitch McConnell, helped to get a judge appointed in Kentucky that has an anti abortion sort of stance or background or perspective.
When you are a president that stands where you stand on democracy and pro choice and all of the things to me, in my mind, I'm thinking that all choices add up to a reality. So to make that move and to have him as someone who talks about being able to reach across the aisle, I keep thinking to myself, to what to January 6th to Mitch McConnell, to Mike, to Mike Pence or to all these other folks. So, yeah, how do we, when you talk about. Because again, Barack Obama had that position to be able to affect the courts and now we have a situation where you're, again, we're talking about how things locally happen, but the presidents have an effect on it. Everybody's so scared. Everybody. The, so much of this conversation has been fear of if Donald Trump gets into office, what Donald Trump will do.
And all I keep hearing about as when Biden's in office and things about, is about what he can't do or what, you know what I mean? And we're not afraid. We're not afraid of like we're afraid that he can get in and dismantle and change so many things. And yet what I see is Biden can go around what he wants to go around Congress or whatever to get funding to do the things that he wants to do, but won't, won't bend the system in the democracy's favor because in fear of feeling like he's tilting the two parties, you know, agreement.
[00:12:52] Speaker D: Well, there's a lot of layers in this, too. I mean, part of the reason is that Donald Trump has shown no regard for law and Constitution. And so he will do whatever he can and he doesn't care if it complies with the law. And there are a lot of Democrats who say that, you know, Biden and other Democratic presidents should do the same thing. You know, if they don't care about the law, we shouldn't care about the law either. I don't think that's a good solution.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Me neither.
[00:13:20] Speaker C: I don't think it's that extreme now.
[00:13:22] Speaker D: But I do think that, you know, there are some areas where Democrats could try to use their power more effectively. In some places, it doesn't work. I mean, Biden tried to do this with student loans. He tried to give student loan forgiveness to people. And they took it to court. They found Republican judges who said, nope, you can't do that. He tried to do it with aid to black farmers. He tried to give money to black farmers who had been deprived by the government for decades and shut out of government resources. And then the Republicans took that to court and said, no, you can't do that either. You can't help black farmers. Even down in Atlanta, where I think it was Atlanta, a group called the Fearless Fund, Black Women Entrepreneur Fund, trying to create venture capital fund, trying to help other black women who wanted to start businesses.
They tried to just. There was a. Is a private organization just trying to help black women start businesses. They took them to court. They found Republican judges said, nope, you can't do that. You can't help other black women. That's unconstitutional. That's why these courts are so important, because we also see that these judges that Trump appoints aren't typical judges. You know, they're people who want. Who are willing to disregard the law to protect Donald Trump in many instances. And I think the real danger with Donald Trump is that we have a whole. He has a whole party of people who are complicit in what he's doing and will allow him to continue doing this. They won't stand up to him. And he said from the beginning that he will govern as a dictator. I mean, I don't know how clear you can be about this.
Sometimes we forget how history repeats itself.
When Hitler first tried to run for office, he was unsuccessful, but he learned from his mistake and came back and became the Chancellor of Germany and then became the dictator of Germany, the Fuhrer.
And people say, oh, well, Donald Trump isn't like Hitler. He's just. He's just a showman. He's just. He's just all talk. But you know what? Donald Trump is a narcissist. I don't think he has any regard for the way our system is supposed to work. All he cares about is himself. All he cares about is what makes his ego help. Make it makes his ego feel better. If you got people all around him telling him, hey, yeah, do this, do that, I don't see that there are any guardrails. Who's going to stop him? The Supreme Court's not going to stop him. The Congress isn't going to stop him.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: But you're saying, like, I feel like we keep getting this message every election season about electing these folks in who can't help stop some of this. Or I'm, when I get in office, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But I feel like Trump and a lot of folks have revealed you're not.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Going to do nothing.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: And, and when, like when the January six or when certain, when his, there were certain things we had him on, even when we tried to impeach, when we impeach him the first time around, they weren't even trying to go with a strong hand on it, even though they had all that they had. So to not, to not use, to not adhere to the ability to call a thing a thing moves swiftly so that our system has some validity in the fact of you can't do this and still be considered a part of this democracy.
[00:16:40] Speaker D: Well, this is the real thing. This is the point. I've been, I've been meaning to write about this for the past several days, and I haven't gotten around to writing it, but people have been asking this question a lot about Joe Biden, like, how come Joe Biden isn't winning more of the black vote? You know, how come black people are trailing away? You know what, Black people are not unanimous in their opinion about anything. It's not surprising. But, but, but still, the overwhelming majority of black people are not going to vote for Donald Trump. They definitely, 90% of black. We're not going to vote for Donald Trump.
And the real issue, I think we should be asking instead of pointing the finger at black people, why aren't we doing this or that we should be pointing the finger at white people? Why is it that the majority of white people plan to vote for Donald Trump? Why is it that the majority of white people voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and they didn't vote for Barack Obama in any of his elections? Why is it the majority of white people voted for Donald Trump again in 2020 after all the chaos he created?
[00:17:39] Speaker C: But what I say is, why do birds suddenly appear?
What? Because the thing is, is like, why do rainbows, why is water wet? Like, you understand what I'm saying?
[00:17:52] Speaker D: Like, they, why does everything have to be about race? It's exactly right. Why? Why? Why? It's like white people are invested in protecting whiteness and that. And that's the thing we need to be focused on. Everybody's, everybody's focused on Joe Biden not getting Muslim support or black support. Yeah, I get that. But you know what the real question we should be asking is why is it that white people continue to support Donald Trump? Why is it after, after being twice impeached, quadruple indicted, after having 91 charges against him, after six bankruptcies, after being convicted, after having his company convicted of fraud, after his two of three of his lawyers have been. Have been convicted, after several of his top aides have been convicted, after he's run a country for four years with chaos, after everything he said about creating a dictatorship, pulling out of NATO, not willing to support our allies, after all this stuff that white people who've been lecturing black people and brown people for years about what we should be doing and how we should be respectful of our country and we should be electing serious leaders, why is it the majority of white people still want to vote for this guy? And that's the real issue that America is facing. It's not about black and brown people not showing up for Joe Biden. It's about white people, racist white people showing up to support Donald Trump. That's the problem that America is facing.
[00:19:13] Speaker C: Because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, they're literally still the majority that gets to decide which way this thing tilts.
[00:19:21] Speaker D: Well, yes, and that's part of the problem because there's not all white people who feel this way, fortunately, because there had to be some critical mass of white people who don't. That's the reason why Barack Obama was able to get elected, because even though he didn't win the white vote, he got enough white votes to be able to support him. But Donald Trump won the white vote in both of his elections. Barack Obama lost the white vote in both of his elections. What does that say about white people in America?
[00:19:47] Speaker C: But I think that you say about white people in America, I think that you keep. Keep asking very rhetorical questions.
[00:19:56] Speaker D: Because it's all about race. White people are invested in protecting racist white supremacist policies. That's the reason why they're voting for Donald Trump. That's the reason why they voted for Donald Trump in the past.
[00:20:09] Speaker C: That is, ladies and gentlemen, that is the answer. But the reality is we're going to all continue to be gaslit. That that is not what we're talking. That's not the situation. So when we talk about voting, it's always protected in this thing of a civil duty that we don' Talk about, because it's my right to vote and I, you know, I vote personally and you don't have to discuss it and blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, you're living next door to a Trump supporter and don't even know it.
[00:20:34] Speaker D: And they're going to blame us and say, well, black people, we only voted 85% for Biden instead of 88%. You know what? That's, that's what the hell. That's. A lot of people are voting for them. Are you? And, but they're not, they're not, they're not pointing the finger at white people who are voting overwhelmingly for Donald Trump. That is, that is, that is some twisted logic to make us to blame. We are the ones that have to rescue the country from white people who are ruining the country by supporting Donald Trump.
[00:21:01] Speaker C: And that's what I'm saying is like the question, the question, I agree. And the questions that you're asking, you know, and the mirror, I believe that needs to be held up to white society here in America and abroad and those who have adopted a colonizing mindset. But the real, I feel like the very real situation is this, that the white supremacy and the culture of that has created an experience where the ongoings of legality policy, whether it's this, whether it's Donald Trump in office or Biden really ain't gonna rock my boat one way or another.
I think it's reflective and it's, it's, it's weird, but I think it's reflective of both. One, the non voter who says, whether Donald Trump is in office or whether Biden's in office, my life around these parts is still looking the same. It's not changing for me on this level. Then you have, then you have, I think everyone, I think, I think you have.
[00:22:19] Speaker E: Okay, picture this. It's Friday afternoon when a thought hits you. I can spend another weekend doing the same old whatever or I can hop into my all new Hyundai Santa Fe and hit the road. With available htrac, all wheel drive and three row seating, my whole family can head deep into the wild. Conquer the weekend in the all new Hyundai Santa Fe. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai, there's joy in every journey.
Okay, picture this. It's Friday afternoon when a thought hits you. I can spend another weekend doing the same old whatever. Or I can hop into my all new Hyundai Santa Fe and hit the road. With available htrac, all wheel drive and three row seating, my whole family can head deep into the wild. Conquer the weekend in the all new Hyundai Santa Fe. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai there's joy in every journey.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Almost everyone else and almost I could be wrong in this space and system where this is the world we're living in right now. This is what's going on. These are the politics. But I still got to get minds and get, and pay these bills and do, you know, whatever I got to do necessary. So I'm wondering if that mindset could expand to us creating our own systems that not affected. But it sounds like when we do, like the Fearless Fund, we're met with the oppression again.
So how do we, how do we dismantle systems, create systems while still serving and protecting each other?
[00:24:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I got this question. I was in Boston last week and I did a book setting and somebody said something very similar to what you just said.
What if we create our own institutions and go around them? And the truth is they're making that illegal too. Like you just said about the Fearless Fund, they're making it.
They have appointed judges. This is not something new. They've been working on this for 50 years, just like they did on abortion. They didn't start an abortion two years ago when Donald Trump was elected. Whatever. That's four years ago. Whatever.
They started this thing in the 1970s. They started going against affirmative action in the 1970s. They've been orchestrating all these things for a long time. All these things were happening now. Attacking dei, attacking affirmative action, attacking Claudine Gay, this, taking out Roe versus Wade, taking away voting rights. This has been part of their plan all along. It's just they, they. But you know how they, how they executed it. They voted.
They, they, they didn't win every election, but they kept voting and voting and voting and they finally got enough people in place where they got the judges that they wanted and they got the, the policymakers, they wanted to be able to, to affect, affect their agenda. And a lot of us need to understand that we have to have a similar strategy. We may not get what we want right away, but the problem is if we don't get what we want, sometimes we think, oh well, a system is screwed and corrupt. We're never going to get anything. So we leave. Which is exactly what they want. They want us to get so frustrated by the inability to accomplish anything that we just check out and we don't pay attention to it. And then the next thing you know, you lose the right to control your own body. You lose the right to marry the person you want. You lose the right to be able to vote. You lose the right to be free from police harassment. You lose all these basic rights that you just take for Granted, because, oh, we didn't think it was that important. And it's so crazy because in some ways it kind of argues for what you were saying before. Maybe the Democrats should just say, f the system. And we're going to break all the rules, too. Because when Democrats get elected and they can't accomplish all the things that they want to accomplish, that gets used against them, even though the reason why they can't accomplish it is usually because the Republicans are blocking them. And so the Republicans want to block it. So then the Democrats can't go back to their own base.
[00:26:24] Speaker C: Republicans are never playing a fair game. Like, that's, that's the thing. So that's what kind of I, that's, I get it. I get it. But you don't bring, they say you don't bring a stick to a gunfight. So, baby, a stick. You don't bring a stick to. You don't bring a stick either. But like, so I feel like what we've been watching unfold over decades is some nefarious gameplay.
[00:26:53] Speaker D: Oh, yeah.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: So much so that msnbc, cnn, most of them. I don't know if I'm watching the super bowl or the election.
It's a game. And, and what I feel like some of the people ain't playing the game. They not at least, at least for what the opponent. On the thing, on the thing is they bring in magic and crystals.
[00:27:16] Speaker D: Well, that's the reason why I was a little, I was very disappointed when Barack Obama, in his last year in office, nominated a Supreme Court justice, Merrick Garland, and didn't. They didn't even get him. They didn't even let him have a hearing. They wouldn't even allow him to have a hearing because they said it was too close to an election. And then when Ruth Bader Ginsburg, this one, he died because Justice Scalia died in February. I think it was the year when Obama was in office. And then when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died in September, in September, they said it's okay if Trump appoints somebody two months before the election. I mean, the hypocrisy is stunning. But we can't just point out the hypocrisy because Republicans have shown that they were willing to play hardball, to cheat, lie and tell all kinds of, of to use all kinds of misinformation to make their case.
[00:28:10] Speaker C: And Democrats, I think we could stop short of the misinformation. I don't think we ever have to go into a place where we are giving misinformation. But I do believe that what they say can't be done. I do believe that they should just do it anyway in some instances, especially if it's in favor of the people.
[00:28:32] Speaker D: Well, that's why I feel like, you know, like I said, the system itself is corrupt because the system was. And it's not the two party system again, it's the system the way the framers created it. They didn't want radical changes happening every day or every week, every month. They wanted a stable system to protect their property. So they don't, they didn't want Congress to be able to pass anything quickly. They didn't want. That's the reason why you have two, two different House and a Senate, two different bodies. I don't think we need all this. I prefer that we have, actually, I prefer we have a parliamentary system where whoever is the prime minister or what we can call the president, see if we want is the person who's also in charge of the legislature. So you don't have to get approval from Congress. If you elect a president, whether it's Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, Donald Trump or whatever, whoever it is, if you elect the president, that president is able to accomplish her, his or their agenda simply by virtue of the fact that they control the government. We can't do that in this country.
[00:29:27] Speaker C: We can't, we can't do that.
[00:29:29] Speaker D: If you like, if you elect the president, I mean, that's, but that's the way it works in the UK and many other countries here. If you elect a president, you know, that presence has to figure out how to get it through Congress and get everything else done and. Right.
[00:29:42] Speaker C: He can't fully do his job. Right, right. That, that, that has to, something has to be done there in which if we elect someone and we want them to be, we think and want them to be able to do certain things, then we have to make it possible. But it just, it's difficult when you have characters like Donald Trump where that same very power might be very detrimental to our country.
[00:30:04] Speaker D: And I really do think that, you know, I get what you're saying and what you said earlier that people are always saying why every year, every four years, they say this is the most important election of our lifetime. And usually it's not.
But the sad truth is that with Donald Trump on the ballot and Donald Trump seeking revenge the way he wants to, this is in my opinion, the most important election of our lifetime. And I know it's like, well, didn't you say that last time? Can't we just get Rid of. Donald Trump is a unique. Is a uniquely dangerous figure in American political history. There's nobody ever like him. He's the first president we've ever had in our country who came into office with no government.
[00:30:43] Speaker C: But don't you think that that reveals the flaw in this at the think the one thing that Donald Trump did very efficiently is revealed the flaws in our system as he, as he exploited each one of them. But so what I'm trying to. Where I'm at, at a place where I'm kind of stuck. Sure, okay, we're gonna move on and we gonna do what we need to do to get. Make this work. But I'm still, I ain't forgot. I'm still stuck on the fact that why is he even a candidate? How, how is that even a possibility? When the courts, some courts and constitution and things say that if you're an insurrectionist, you can't run for president. And some of the courts in which we've appointed people to say that that's what this is, and I'm ruling that this person is ineligible. But not just. It's like there's so many different. It's like one of those monsters on a video game that you have to do so many big hits in order to take the monster down. How is it we got this 91 charges, we got bank, we got all these different things and the. He's still here in the election. How. What does that mean about our election?
[00:31:49] Speaker D: Did you ever play Whack a Mole?
[00:31:51] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:31:52] Speaker D: Where the chipmunk comes up. You had to hit, hit the chipmunk with the mallet and then no one comes over there. That's the way it is with Donald Trump. Me, I feel like the. His evil genius is that for most people you have one scandal and it just, it just, it covers everything. They can't move past that because it just becomes their, their whole identity. But for Donald Trump, he has a thousand scandals. So you can't focus on this scandal because you're focusing that scandal, then you're on that one. Then he shows up, another scandal. It becomes mind numbing because there's so many scandals. And I don't want to go back to that. And I think it's going to get even worse in the future if there is a future Trump administration, because I think he's going to be even more unhinged. He knows that he can try to get away with anything. He can. And I do think that it could lead to a potential dictatorship in this country because I don't see that the Republicans are going to do anything without them.
[00:32:49] Speaker C: Well, okay, but let me. Okay, so I hear that and I hear the threat of the dictatorship and I'm afraid of it. And I'm going to do, let's say I'm going to do everything I can in my power to help be a part of the force that's going to stop it. But who are we under a dictatorship? So, and the question I asked when I was at the White House years ago when Donald Trump was in the White House, was to try to get people to stop getting wrapped up in this scapegoating that happens through Donald Trump, meaning when he was out of office, a lot of white people scapegoated the ways in which they participated through it being Donald Trump. It was Donald Trump. It was his problem. It was, it, you know, it was him doing those things. But we're in a space right now where I said there's a lot of well meaning white people and folks who are trying to, like, push their responsibility and the things that they've done onto what he's doing. But what I feel like all these moments throughout history are, are a reflection of not just the times, the reflection of the people. And so who are you right now? Who am I while genocide is happening? Who am I when certain things are going down? Who am I underneath a Trump presidency? Who am I when, If a dictatorship shows up, does that mean that that is now the end of our democracy? Or does that mean that's when some of us start to put our capes on and start to, you know what I'm saying, Like, and I say start because some people have already been doing all of that. But it won't be until it gets to that moment where we see everybody rise up.
[00:34:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. The sad thing is that I don't think that they represent the majority of the public.
I think there's enough people, definitely black and brown people and a minority of white people to be able to, who don't want that, but they have to be engaged enough to realize that it's on the way and engaged enough to fight against it.
But we saw in South Africa that a minority of white people were able to rule over black people for decades. They call it apartheid. Just because you have a majority doesn't mean you will have the power. And that's what they're, that's what they're doing. You know, no Republican candidate has won the popular vote in this country for 20 years.
[00:35:20] Speaker C: Right?
[00:35:21] Speaker D: Not one. And they know that as well as anybody Else. So they, they can't win and govern democratically. They have to win and govern authoritarianly. That's not a word.
[00:35:31] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:35:34] Speaker D: And so the question you ask is, who are we? I'm hoping that who we are is the people who realize that we are a flawed country with a lot of challenges that face us. And no matter how difficult the challenges may be, we still have an obligation to stand up and fight back against not just dictatorship and authoritarianism, but racism and oppression and injustice and whatever form that they, that they show up. We're seeing a rise in all those things. Donald Trump didn't start those things. Let's be clear about that. You're exactly right. Donald Trump was the facilitator. He gave permission to all those people who already had those racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, bigoted beliefs all along, gave them permission to be out there and say it publicly because he was willing to be their friend. And so we have to be the people to stand up in this, in the small spaces or 10 or 10 or 20 people or large spaces of a thousand people. We have to have the courage to stand up and speak the truth.
[00:36:37] Speaker C: All right, well, thank you so much for speaking the truth, for writing the truth, I hope, you know, because your book is talking about race and all the things, and we are in a very sensitive environment when it comes to books and everything. Have you, have you felt any of the pressure around the book bands or the, the, the, you know, prohibition to talk about these issues? Are you feeling any of that on your book tour?
[00:37:00] Speaker D: I haven't yet, but it just came out. So, you know, who knows what may happen next? I haven't been to Florida, but I'm going to Miami in a few weeks, so who knows what'll happen when I get to Florida. But so far, I'm just happy to be able to talk about what's going on. And it's a complicated issue, but I do get a lot of threats from people, a lot of, you know, negative mail, hate mail and stuff like that.
And it's part of the territory.
[00:37:28] Speaker C: It's part of the territory. Well, thank you for being courageous and standing up. We need more people to do that. If you listen, you. Everybody doesn't have to wear a cape. But I do believe that everybody can respond in whatever way that works for them. Yeah, but what. Anything else that you feel like we should know now? No opera. There's no opportunity wasted. Here's an opportunity. What is something, if anything, that you haven't talked about already is There anything else that we should be aware of now?
[00:38:04] Speaker D: God, I can't remember what I haven't talked about right now, but, no, I just think that we're living in unprecedented times. I don't think people really fully appreciate that, especially some young people, because you might. You might look at things and say, well, this is the way it's always been. It's always been. No, it hasn't been this way. I've been in politics since I was a teenager, and I've never seen our. Our country as divided as it is, as. As disruptive as it is.
And I. I feel like this is the most divided our country has been since definitely the civil rights movement for sure, and maybe even the Civil War era, because white people are really starting to show themselves, and it's not our responsibility as black people to save them. It's white people's responsibility. This is one thing I will talk about. Allies.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:39:07] Speaker D: A lot of people who are white come up to me and they ask, well, what can I do to be a good ally?
And it's important that it's great and important that you go support black people in black events and all that kind of stuff. I agree. But the most important work that an ally could do is talking to other white people. Use your white privilege to talk to. Talk to your racist uncle and your grandfather. Talk to the racist co workers and your racist teammates. Talk to your racist friends. Talk to. Talk to those people. That's where the work needs to be done. You don't need to come to me wearing a dashiki and talking about how you supporting my cause. Go talk to those white people and preach the message to them. That's where the real work needs to be happening.
[00:39:45] Speaker C: Touche. And I say that that needs to happen across race and also, you know, obviously our LGBT issues and community, all these people who say that they're our allies but actually don't really show up in the conversation when it really matters. You want to be a real ally, you don't have to share a story with me about the devastation. I already know. I'm a part of the community. What you can do is talk to the people you very well know, hold some very messed up ideas about LGBTQ people and do the work.
[00:40:15] Speaker D: I totally agree with that. Yeah. The same message for that. For that as well. That it's not about telling me how supportive you are, what an ally you are, you know? Yeah, I get that. Hey, Bon. And boom. I appreciate that, but. But you need to talk to. To the. To the homophobes the transphobes, and the people who, in your community that you know that you're interacting with, who say things and do things that are problematic, and you don't really call them out on those things. Yeah, it's. You can't just skate away and know that. That you showed up at a. At a Pride event and feel like that you've done your duty for the year.
[00:40:52] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you again for this conversation. I'm going to share. We're going to share so many gems and information, and I. I really am hoping that the will of the people be heard during this year and that, you know, I really feel like you said you've never seen the country so divided and it being this sort of intense, and I believe that is because we're getting to the center. I think we're getting towards the core of a lot of stuff that people have through, for whatever reasons, have hidden their true feelings about how they feel about things and people and political things. Now that where the dirt is coming up out of the carpet, it's nasty, it's ugly, it's scary. But if we face it head on, I think that we can handle this, especially with people like you out there making things clear for folks and giving us a little bit of a lighthouse of how we go. Because, listen, I'm radical, and I know that some of the things that I say can really shake people up, but I really appreciate this conversation because it's got me to a place to still feel great about where I'm standing on my questions and all my things, but to still understand fully my responsibility in voting. So I really appreciate that.
[00:42:03] Speaker D: I appreciate you, Angelica, for all the work that you're doing and being a great role model and symbol for so many of us. And thank you for being here and thank you for inviting me to be a part of this conversation.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. We'll be right back, y'all, baby. Asked and answered. Thank you so much, Keith Boykin, for writing that book. Why does everything have to be about race? If you haven't already, make sure you go out and pick this book up. It's even on audiobooks. Listen, I'm an audiobook queen, honey. Now, before we go, I want to drop another Buddhist breadcrumb and introduce you to a historical Buddhist figure by the name of Devadatta. Now, Devadatta would be somewhat similar to Lucifer in the sense that Devadatta was Shakyamuni's cousin and followed him originally as a disciple, but later became his enemy. Even still, Shakyamuni revealed that it was actually Devadatta who led him to discover the Lotus Sutra in a past existence. So he actually considers Devadatta to be a good friend without whom he would not have attained enlightenment. He also predicted that in the distant future Devadatta would in fact attain enlightenment after all. So the point of this whole story and perspective is that the enlightenment even of evil people helps to illustrate the universal possibility of Buddhahood.
[00:43:30] Speaker C: So I'm not saying that we rush.
[00:43:31] Speaker B: To forgiveness stage when folks have been doing evil deeds. But I do still believe in grace. I believe in transformation, I believe in restorative justice, and I believe in accountability. And none of these things needs to replicate violence. We can course correct wherever there is error. We don't need to hide our scars, but remember the lessons that we learned on our way to healing this week. If you find that you made a grave mistake, even if it seems far off right now, the healing can be yours too. If you choose it.
No opportunity wasted.
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