Black Cowboy Culture with Ivan McClellan

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hey, Los Angeles, are you Looking for unique 4th of July plans for you and your friends or family? LA's greatest rivalry returns to Rose Bowl Stadium for a July 4th edition of the El Trafico soccer matchup. As the LA Galaxy returned to their original home to defend their turf against LAFC last year, a record crowd of over 82,000 fans were on hand to witness the Galaxy victory. That's July 4th at Rose Bowl Stadium. Guaranteed fireworks both on and off the field and a celebration for all of LA LA Galax vs LAFC. The Rose bowl edition [email protected] tickets. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Welcome back to now, no Opportunity Wasted. I'm your host, Angelica Ross. Now, things might sound a little bit different right now because I am coming from my hotel in Glendale, California. I am filming a short film that's really incredible starring myself and Brian Michael Smith. It's an amazing story written by a trans writer and I just can't wait for folks to be able to see it. And I've just actually been happy being back on set again. But you know, I'm not on video right now and I'm just doing this quick voice note actually on my phone. I do have some of my equipment with me, but I'm actually on my way to set. They're about to call a car to get me. So I really don't have the space to set everything up like I normally do, but I wanted to make sure that I gave a personal message opening up this episode and starting with a word of encouragement and for so far, our daily encouragement today for June actually today is Monday, June 17, but I am recording this on Sunday, June 16. And so I was looking at June 16 message and I actually want to read that. So I'm going to read that one. And it says one who loves nature, can cherish other people, value peace, and possess a richness of character unfettered by selfish calculations of personal gain or loss. Those who live in a calculating way will end up calculating their own worth detrimentally. Such a life is limited in the extreme. Nature, however, is infinite. End quote with Daisaku Ikeda I love that quotes because I think right now we're living in a space where a lot of people are just being very calculated with how they're moving. Their friendships are not really real. They're calculated so much of how folks are moving, especially if you're in like a social climbing type space where people are not valuing people for who they. [00:02:58] Speaker A: Are, but for who what they do. [00:03:00] Speaker B: And you know, what they can offer them, you know Seeing people for their own personal gain or loss. We got to move out of that, folks. I got to leave that behind. You got to learn to value and. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Cherish people just because. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Because people deserve respect, and people deserve to be valued, and people deserve love, like, unconditional love. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Like, we should have a love for. [00:03:23] Speaker B: One another in society. It doesn't have to be romantic, but we should have a love for humanity. And it's obvious that we're struggling with that right now. [00:03:34] Speaker A: So that's our word for today. [00:03:36] Speaker B: So much, obviously, is going on in the world. I really don't have the time to break all that down right now. Obviously, I will jump back into it this week when I get back home in Georgia. I fly back tomorrow. So in the meantime, though, you. You got to check out this conversation with me and Ivan McLellen, a black cowboy photographer, did a documentary about black. You know, basically documented. Excuse me. Documented this lifestyle of black cowboys and black rodeos. It just was amazing, especially on the conversation that Beyonce opened up with Renaissance 2, part 2, and bringing up the fact that black people have always been here. We have always been country. Take a listen. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Well, welcome to now, Ivan McClellan. How are you right now? [00:04:30] Speaker C: I'm doing great. It's a. It's a beautiful day. I'm happy to be on here. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Where you. Where you. Where are you calling from? Coming in from right now. [00:04:38] Speaker C: I'm in Portland, Oregon. That's where I. That's where I live. [00:04:41] Speaker A: That's where you're based? [00:04:42] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker A: Portland, Oregon. You know, I've been there once. I've been. I've been through there. It's. That's. That's a. That's a countryman's territory, right? Like, it's. [00:04:53] Speaker C: It's the city. Not so much, but, like, you drive 10 minutes outside, and you're in. You're in the country. You're in Cal. [00:04:59] Speaker A: You're in the country now. Talk to me. Because you're wearing. You're. You're. You're wearing. Look amazing, by the way, in your cowboy hat. So are you by nature a country boy? [00:05:11] Speaker C: A little bit. I'm a little bit country. I'm a little bit city. I grew up in Kansas City. Um, we. We lived in the city, but we lived on five acres of land. So it was. [00:05:21] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:05:21] Speaker C: It was a little bit of catching fireflies and picking blackberries and climbing trees, and it was a little bit of, you know, acting up in the front yard, running away from the police. So it was. It was a mixture of a Bunch of different stuff going on. [00:05:36] Speaker A: So talk to me a little bit about that. Just about. Because this podcast specifically is no opportunity wasted. And what it sometimes is, is a, you know, a conversation in the moment, and sometimes it's a conversation talking about, like, in hindsight, about how you were able to see the opportunities and the challenges that kind of led you to where you are. So when you look back at. Sort of. Because you're a photographer, right? Correct. And you have this book, Eight Seconds, Black Cowboys in America. And it's a. A photo journey. Like a. How. How would you describe it as a photo journal? How would you. What was. What's the technical term? [00:06:22] Speaker C: I call it a documentary project. [00:06:25] Speaker A: A documentary project. That sounds amazing. And so to me, especially when it comes to photography, photos, perspective, Ed is all about your lens and how that, I guess, like, came together and was developed over some time. How did your upbringing in Kansas City sort of influence the lens that you. And the way you see the world? [00:06:48] Speaker C: You know, it was critically important. I mean, especially with this project. Eight Seconds came about after a chance encounter going to a rodeo in Okmulgee, Oklahoma. A friend of mine invited me to go down and experience black cowboy culture, which I didn't really know was a thing at the time. Even though I had grown up country, I had grown up around black folks that raised cattle. I grown up around black folks that raised horses. I didn't think they were cowboys because I thought the cowboys were white, based on what I had seen in Hollywood films. And going there and seeing thousands of black cowboys, seeing, you know, people in starched white Stetson and seeing people with, you know, long acrylic nails clutching the reins of a horse and seeing cowboys riding around with no shirt on and gold chains, you know, on a horse, like, wow. It was like, this is. Not only are black cowboys real, but this is a real and immediate part of my own culture and my own identity. I mean, while I was down there, I met cowboys that lived less than a quarter mile from the house that I grew up in. You know, a lot of folks come down from Kansas City for family reunions every year. So it. And now I see riding clubs everywhere in Kansas City, where I go there. And it was just this part of the culture that I really didn't pay a lot of attention to because it wasn't where I was focused. But now it's completely redefined my home, from this place of kind of pain and poverty to this place of independence and grit and all of these things that you would associate with the Cowboy. [00:08:37] Speaker A: So. Okay, so talk to me about what you. First of all, I guess, what led you to want to do this project and take a deeper look into the cowboy life intersecting with black culture? [00:08:54] Speaker C: I just thought it was extraordinary, I felt, in Portland, Oregon. I kind of landed here during my design career and found it to be a very odd place. I found it to be very white. It took me a long time to find black folks out here and find community. When I was working at the design agency that I was working at, there were 200 people there, and I was the only black person that. That led to, you know, imposter syndrome and a lot of discomfort. I was never quite a culture fit. You know, I was in an office, and people didn't know who Luther Vandross was. They. They had never watched Showtime at the Apollo. I just felt. I just felt completely out of sorts in the city that I was in. So that chance encounter of going to that rodeo felt really comfortable. People. People liked me without me having to prove it, and kids were smiling at me and not looking at me weird, and it just felt. It felt like a real homecoming. And so I kept going back. [00:10:05] Speaker A: That's kind of odd that you. You know, I think as black Americans, there's just so many spaces that sound like what you describe that It's. It's not always. I guess you can't always take it for granted that we would find community, you know, sort of wherever we are. So what is that with this black. What black rodeo culture? Is that. Is that, like, a whole thing? [00:10:34] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. It's. It's like a whole. It's a whole vibe. It's. It starts with, you know, style. It starts with your jeans creased. That starts with, you know, your hat kind of. Kind of shaped and in the way that you want to look, you know. [00:10:51] Speaker A: And, you know, as black people, we love anything that's got to do with style. [00:10:54] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I got my rings on. You know, this is something that I kind of saw. Cowboys. [00:11:00] Speaker A: The belt buckles, too. [00:11:01] Speaker C: Earrings, the belt buckles. All of it is specific to you and specific to the way that you want to present yourself in the world. Then it. Then it goes to, like, the music. You know, the first time I heard Lil Nas X's Old Town Road was at a rodeo, and the crowd went up, people went crazy. Because it was just this mixture of a lot of different parts of the culture kind of coming together in this beautiful gumbo of a song. And people really. [00:11:31] Speaker A: Now, what do you think about speaking of that, Speaking of That. What do you think about that cultural moment where you, you know, you have this song that becomes such a huge hit? It starts to almost open the. This conversation that obviously we'll get to in a second, that Beyonce really blew the door wide open on the conversation. But I think that, you know, until they realize who he was, you know, it was kind of this hokey doie country, you know, sort of song. And. And then folks found out that he was a part of the LGBT community. What was in your, like, sort of perspective? What did that look like, being in the black rodeo culture and then having sort of Lil Nas X come out as gay and having this be, like, such a pop hit song? [00:12:26] Speaker C: You know, I think it was very. Some people were shocked, and a lot of people thought that he was a cowboy because just. Just the way that he was talking about the culture. He's talking about. Yeah, he's talking about the horses in the back, and, you know, he's just saying a lot of these things. Wrangler on his booty. He's just like. He's like, throwing out all of these signals, and it's like, hey, he's. He's. He's. He belongs here. He's like. He's like one of them. And then. And then when he. When we really realized more of who Lil Nas X was and realized that he was in the LGBTQ community, I thought it was awesome. I thought it was really incredible. And, I mean, I've seen a lot of queer folks. I've seen a lot of trans folks in this culture. I've seen, like, wow. People leading drill teams in the rodeo parade in Boley, Oklahoma. All black team, all black town that were trans and working with the kids and, you know, they were accepted, as far as I could tell, in those spaces. So I thought it was. [00:13:31] Speaker A: And this place that you describe, honestly, because, just like, you talked about how you felt, you know, having kids smiling at you, being around your people, like, to be honest, like, that's. I often, as a trans person have this similar thing where when you realize that you are around people and you can drop your shoulders and you realize you're not going to hear, like, homophobic slurs or have you. Because it's like, just because, you know, I have the experience, just because we around our people doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to be accepted and safe and what have you. So it's, you know, it's really great to. To hear you say that. You've witnessed a very inclusive space with the black rodeo. Culture and LGBTQ folks. And then enters the chat. Beyonce. [00:14:22] Speaker C: Sure. [00:14:23] Speaker A: How. How do you feel? First of all, did you see the performance with Beyonce and the Dixie Chicks? I think it was at the Country Music Awards a couple of years back. [00:14:35] Speaker C: I did, absolutely, yeah. [00:14:37] Speaker A: How did you feel in that moment? Because I definitely. I've been in places before where you are the. You're doing your thing, but you can look out in the crowd and you can tell people is just not there for you. I really felt it was just a moment to watch. You could see the struggle back and forth, even in the audience of people who were ready for this moment to push forward and other people who were just like, no. [00:15:01] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, at the time, I mean, you know, I always assume best intent. I don't. I don't really walk around looking for racism. It's got to kind of find me because I. I generally am like, oh, well, I must smell funny, or, you know, I must be off, or it must be my shirt. I never. The last thing that I think is somebody doesn't like me because of my race. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Wow. [00:15:23] Speaker C: And when I. When I. When I. When I. When. That's undeniably true. I'm so disappointed in the world. [00:15:28] Speaker A: Right. [00:15:28] Speaker C: You know, that's just the way that I walk around in that moment. And this might be that sort of having the blinders on that I have. I thought the audience didn't like the Dixie Chicks. I thought. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Right. Because. Because of the. The stuff with George Bush that they had to go through before. [00:15:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Because they. They had been clear blacklisted and pushed out of the culture. And I thought. I thought that that was the problem, but that's not. That's not what Beyonce thought, and that's not what she felt. And so, you know, and, you know. [00:15:57] Speaker A: But I. I think that, you know, culturally speaking, I think, yes, the Dixie. I think the Dixie Chicks, to me, it seemed like they did get a sort of resurgence in the sense that when time passed and sort of, I think it was revealed that they were more so standing on the right side of history with things. I think that. And obviously, their documentary Shut up and Sing, and a couple other things I think helped to open that moment up for them to be back on stage where folks will be more open because they understand these are strong women who were standing up for what's right, you know, and. But here's now Beyonce, and I think that. I think it's actually clear to me now that that was about Beyonce with the response that has become to Cowboy Carter and the Album she's put out now, like, people are saying the choir part very loud with their full chest and saying, you know, there was one woman who, you know, obviously back walked what she said, but she said we weren't planning, we were picking, you know, so we're not really a country. What. What would you say to black people, not white people? Because at the. On this podcast, listen, I'm glad that we got some white people that listen, but we do not center what you think. We do not center your thoughts. So what do you. What would you say to black and brown folks who have been told that they aren't country? Or to those who have not yet maybe opened themselves up? Maybe they ain't heard the Beyonce album yet or what have you. And they have. They think all countries, not for them. [00:17:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you know, you show up how you feel authentic. Right. Some people, Some people would say that me wearing a cowboy hat is. Is not appropriate because I don't. When my hands are soft, you know, because I. Because I. I can't really ride a horse that well because I'm not like out cowboy and cowboy, but to me, it feels really good. It gives me some confidence. Wearing boots makes me about an inch and a half taller. And I just sort of. I just show up with the presence and an energy that makes me feel authentic. It makes me feel like myself. And I'm just like, hey, if this offends you or you don't think I'm cowboy enough, that's on you. That's what you're dealing with. But for me, I'm plenty cowboy. You know, I represent the culture. I support the culture. I host my own rodeo. Like, I'm doing this as authentically and fully as I possibly can. So, you know, for folks that, that are curious about it but don't feel like, ah, that's for me. For me, go to an event, Go to a rodeo, show up, see how it feels. Put on a cowboy hat, go to a boot bar and put one on. See how it feels on you. See what it says. [00:18:49] Speaker A: Because you can go, you can go to a rodeo, right? As, like a spectator, right? [00:18:52] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. Go to any rodeo. Just walk up in there, see how it feels, see if you like it and. And if it speaks to your soul. If something's humming down on the inside of you, wear that hat. Put it on and don't worry about what nobody has to say. You know, I put on the country music radio station and it's white man after white man. And I love the music. I Love the genre, but baby, Randy. [00:19:16] Speaker A: Travis used to sing to me. [00:19:18] Speaker C: No. Yeah, we watch Hee Haw and Randy Travis would come on there and man, yeah, he's got that gravel. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Trisha Yearwood and all them. Like, don't get me wrong, like, I like me some country and there's a couple ones that I like. But talk to me about, like, your discovery process in, like, as you were pulling this together because you said this took about seven years. [00:19:41] Speaker C: So this is my ninth year, nine years. [00:19:45] Speaker A: And so over this time, what story, like what. What kind of encounters really has stuck with you? [00:19:54] Speaker C: You know, I'll tell you a long story. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah, we got time. [00:20:01] Speaker C: I did a shoot for Stetson hats with a cowboy named Ansi Mitchell. And I don't know what it was ounce. He was coming back from an injury to his femur and. And this is the first time that he'd ridden a bull in a year and a half. And. And he just had a swagger and an energy and a confidence to him that I really haven't seen in another person. He knew who. He knew who he was thoroughly down to the core, and he walked with it. And we just immediately became friends. It just took off. We would text each other. And then whenever I go down to Houston, we hang out, we'd eat crawfish, we go bowling. We would just drive around and cruise and talk to each other about life. And he was younger than me. He was like in his mid-20s. And I'm. I'm close to. I'm almost 42, so. But I never, like, talked to him like I was his uncle or his dad. I just would listen to him and hear what he had to say about his relationships and what he was going through. And he would tell me, I'm gonna win the world championship in bull riding, which no black man has done since 1982. [00:21:17] Speaker A: Wow. [00:21:18] Speaker C: Yeah. The black folks, it's difficult to compete at that level because they just don't have the money. He got better. He. He took fmla off work. He took the money that he had, and he started traveling around the country, going to rodeo. To rodeo. And as he traveled, he would either sleep in his car or he would go and stay with somebody to get a hot meal and a shower. And he started to make his way up through the rankings. I remember the day that he broke the top 50. I called him on the phone and I said, you did it, man. You made the top 50. This is crazy. He said, I'm halfway there. I'm not. I'm not done. He Said, keep watching. And then he made it into the top 40, the top 30. He made it into the top 25. He made. He broke the top 20. He made it into the. Into the teens. And he was in Salt Lake City, Utah, and he was staying with the woman and they got in a fight and she shot and killed him. He got murdered. And. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness, that was. [00:22:15] Speaker C: That was almost two years ago now. And. Oh, you know, it was devastating, obviously, for the entire. [00:22:24] Speaker A: What that, what that makes me think about is because the up. And as you were telling the story up until that moment, I thought to myself, someone that has that kind of dedication is definitely going to have some trouble, some turmoil, relationship wise. Yeah. You know, because the dedication to something like that and then to sleep, to want to sleep in your car, to do whatever I could, especially as a black man choosing this, I could hear all of the judgment of for who. It's ridiculous to have a dream like that. The money that is being spent, the. The money you don't have to do it. The odds. Get a real job, maybe you want a family. You know, all these different things. And it just makes me think about the cost of a dream for us. Like, what does it. What it costs for us to actually even get close or to even have that and what it looks like to be supported. [00:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:28] Speaker A: How. How is that a. Is a cowboy's life a lonely life? Can a cowboy have it all? [00:23:38] Speaker C: Not if they're. Not if they're trying to do what Elsie was doing. I mean, you got to have to compete in a rodeo season. You got to have. You got to have a lot of money in your pocket, tens of thousands of dollars to travel around. And, you know, if you're not supported by a sponsor or if you don't have a rich family member, it's. It's tough. And you kind of spend your whole life sacrificing everything to make it happen. I mean, there are guys that have a job and I have a family, and they stay with their families and, you know, take care of their kids and do their thing, but they don't really compete at a very high level. You know, that just. That takes up all of their resources. So when. When Elsie died, it really became number one. It was revealing to me that I. How close I had gotten, that it was no longer a photo project, but now it was really a part of my life. But also it became a mission for me to try to make it easier for these guys to get down the road. I was like, how do we get brands to support these people. How do we, how do we get some money in their pocket so this is easier for them because it's, it's incredibly hard. [00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I, because I think about, I think about Serena Williams and Venus Williams, you know, playing tennis. I love playing tennis, but I did not originally like it growing up in high school because that's another story. But I realized with so many, I think it's golf and even, I mean lacrosse, hockey, I mean what do you, Baseball, football, pretty much any of you know, these things, it's all money and it's all like, especially there's different levels to it because I think the tennis and like the golf and things like that and even fishing, you know, certain things that cost a lot of money to even go out in a boat and get gas and have these experiences. What I think is so interesting and maybe you can talk to me about this a little bit as well. As a black trans person, I've had experience of being in spaces where there's an assumption that I don't, that I don't belong there. And what I mean by that is that like, you know. [00:26:04] Speaker D: Okay, picture this. It's Friday afternoon when a thought hits you. I can spend another weekend doing the same old whatever. Or I can hop into my all new Hyundai Santa Fe and hit the road. With available htrac, all wheel drive and three row seating. My whole family can head deep into the wild. Conquer the weekend in the all new Hyundai Santa Fe. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai. There's joy in every journey. Okay, picture this. It's Friday afternoon when a thought hits you. I can spend another weekend doing the same old whatever. Or I can hop into my all new Hyundai Santa Fe and hit the road. With available htrac, all wheel drive and three row seating. My whole family can head deep into the wild. Conquer the weekend in the all new Hyundai Santa Fe. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Hyundai. There's joy in every journey. [00:27:04] Speaker A: I was at a cruise summit at the sea. Had all these CEOs, rich people from all these companies, Google, you know, all these places where have you. And yes, there are other black people there. But I'm passing in the audience, I'm passing in the crew as not trans. And so, you know, I think even as, you know, some of the guys were, because it's a trip and whatever, some guys are trying to hit on me and what have you. And I revealed to them, you know, that I am trans and just sort of the response and just. Because it's really an assumption that someone like me wouldn't even be on that boat with them, wouldn't even be in these places when the landscape is like that. How hard it is for us as young boys and girls and non binary folks to like dream about being in these spaces, like being a cowboy, being in these spaces if we don't see them as accessible. [00:28:06] Speaker C: Right. Yeah, you, you got to see it to dream it, you know, And I. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Guess that's why you're doing the work that you're the, you know, creating the spaces that you're creating. [00:28:14] Speaker C: Absolutely. You know, we, at the, at the rode that we do here in Portland, it's all about these kids, you know, being able to see these athletes that look like them competing at a high level for big money and they can go like, wow, you know, that Guy took home $9,000 for riding a bronco. That's incredible. That's something that I can do. And then maybe they'll want to go ride a horse. But when they go to the white rodeo down the road, all they see is white people. I don't see anybody that looks like them. And, and they say like, that's their dream, you know, that's for them. That's not something that I can do. So I think it's incredibly important to show kids. You know, with my kids, I got three kids, it's. And they're very smart and they're very curious. For me, it's about showing them as much different stuff as I can. My daughter is in jiu jitsu. She's not ice skating, she's done sewing, she's done soccer, you know, and I'm just like, hey, I'm just going to throw a bunch of stuff at you. And you tell me what, what vibrates with you, with what, what. What makes your heart light up. And, and that's what we'll dedicate a lot of time to. That's what we're really like, like commit our time and resources to. I think that's, that's important is just seeing it. You know, there are gay rodeos, there are black rodeos, there are Mexican rodeos. You know, in this space, there are lots of places that you can go and be comfortable. There are lots of places where you can go and find community in western sports. But to come, the higher you get, the fiercer the competition gets, the wider it gets. And that's what we really Want to try to change is just like, this guy's a champion. He's doing it at the highest level in the world, and he's black. And the guy that came in second place was black, too. [00:30:07] Speaker A: What do you think is, you know, because you. We're. We're. Is this 20, 24, and we're still having black firsts. We're still having, you know, that kind of environment. And you are raising three children for you, how do you stay sort of. Because you're leading the sort of pack, you know, how do you stay sort of, like, focused and in raising your kids and creating and showing that we can do anything, how do you yourself sort of still stay anchored in the hopefulness and the. The. The, you know, positive attitude of it all and the work that you're doing when there can be so much chaos and challenge? [00:31:02] Speaker C: Yeah, it's really difficult. And I think, like, a lot of folks look at what we're doing, and they want to. They want to put their own spin on it or they want to put their own interpretation on it, and they go, oh, it's about this, and it's about this. Will include this. What about black small businesses? What about. What about, you know, what about housing? You know, what are we doing about housing and affordable housing and all of this stuff? And it can get. It can get distracting at times, trying to accomplish everything at once. And I just sort of go back to the beginning a lot and go, like, what was it that resonated with me? What was it that. That kicked me off on something? And what is it that's propelled me for nine years to continue to do that thing? And I go back to that source, and I go back to that beginning a lot because that keeps me focused, and that keeps me in line, and that keeps me from doing too much and doing too much poorly. I'm like, just do one thing really, really well, baby. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:01] Speaker C: Yeah, just do one thing extremely well instead of 15 things. Okay. It's really tempting, and you want to kind of, like, solve every problem and you want to fix every issue, but. [00:32:14] Speaker A: Are your kids already showing. Are your kids already showing sort of, like, signs of what they're interested in and what they want to do in. [00:32:21] Speaker C: The world, you know? No. No. I really don't have a clue. I'm like, one of my prayers is like, let me. Let me grow old so I can see who they become. Because, I don't know. I can't figure that 7 and 5 and 1. [00:32:34] Speaker A: But you're open. You're open to Them telling you who they are. [00:32:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm open to whoever they become. [00:32:40] Speaker A: I'm into if they want to be nerds or scientists or, you know, figure skaters. [00:32:44] Speaker C: Yeah. If they want to beat. My son is a really good skater. He got on the ice and he's just like, smooth with it and, wow, this is what we're gonna do. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Listen, he might, he might end up breaking territory because, listen, you know, we black people, we still ain't done breaking. Terry. Breaking ice, actually. [00:33:00] Speaker C: Yeah, no, we are not very. We don't show up prominently at the Winter Olympics, you know, so, like, that might. [00:33:05] Speaker A: Right. [00:33:06] Speaker C: That might be his thing. I don't know. But they're still young. If somebody, you know, five was like, oh, Ivan, here's what your life is, you know, I would, that would be disappointing because I've turned so many times in my 40 years. So. Yeah, I don't have a clue what they're going to be. I don't have a clue. [00:33:25] Speaker A: You know what, though? I definitely. I have to get your book. This, this sounds so incredible. Talk, talk to me about what you feel like people who pick up this book will, like, experience. What do you want them to get from, from the book? [00:33:43] Speaker C: There's a few things I think it really, number one, it gets the work off of Instagram. I got an Instagram account, I got a small following. 25,000 people. But they're, they're really committed and they've had that eye opening moment like I did. And so they roll with us on everything that we do. But like Instagram, the whole game is like somebody's scrolling or swiping and you got to get them to stop. You got to get them to stop for, for as many seconds as you can. So like the, the Instagram content is all like, boom. Look at this. This is extraordinary. This is, this is a grand, beautiful person. Here's a beautiful horse. Look at that horse. You know, it's just like, look at that horse. [00:34:27] Speaker A: Look at that horse. [00:34:29] Speaker C: It's, it's all, it's all very big and it's all very show stopping. But with the book, we just like paste things a little bit differently. We pull back, we show a picture of a field. We show a picture of just like a little humble church. And that's the way that we move with the work. So I'm hoping people can slow down and really enjoy the work and consume it like a delicious meal. [00:35:02] Speaker A: You know, I think, I think it's, it's, it's almost like what you. We used to do Geez, I, you know, I don't know, but like, just when, you know, going to museums and sitting in front of like a painting or something for a while, you know, I think, you know, this is definitely going to be one of my coffee table books where I can actually. Because that's what I love about a good coffee table book is actually getting to not speed through the pages like a magazine, but to like, really sit and look and see everything. What you might be missing and what. What. What are you seeing, you know, as the person who's taking the photo? What all have you seen in this image and what is being, you know, what is happening that's not being spoken, but you can see in someone's eyes or, you know, in the, you know, all of those different things. And so I look forward to sort of learning more about black rodeo culture, you know, through your lens. So where can we find this book? [00:36:01] Speaker C: I'm proud to say everywhere we. I just looked at it. [00:36:05] Speaker A: That's great. [00:36:06] Speaker C: On Barnes and Noble, we're like the 300 and something ranked book on Barnes and Noble. I mean, books are on Barnes and Noble. We're like, number 300. I'm like, hey, like, forget the top. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Well, listen, you need to be. And you also need to be riding that horse as much as you can while Beyonce is on it, because it just is what it is. Regardless of how you think it is what it is, she is, like, going through and she's opened these doors. And I'm. I mean, first of all, I'm obsessed with the album. I really love. [00:36:35] Speaker C: I love it. [00:36:36] Speaker A: I love how country it is, me, and how country it is in so many different ways of country, but like, from the musicality and the different instruments that were used to some of the twang that she. She herself used to. The actual sort of collaborations from Dolly Parton, Willie Nelson, you know, Miley Cyrus, other folks that were on the album. So I definitely feel that this is a moment and an awakening is really interesting for me as an activist, advocate, sort of dialogue or, you know, that has these conversations a lot with people because I think. I think we're going to get to a place because there's a lot of critique for. Especially for black artists, Black, you know, folks who are taking up space in this capitalistic, you know, imperialist, white supremacist, patriarchal sort of, you know, landscape. There's so much critique for us when we are not the ones who sort of have created this environment or landscape. And so for some of us, I think a lot of what we can do is in showing up fully in whatever our gifts are. And so I feel like even with, you know, Beyonce, who does not really speak much, you know, when it comes to, like, maybe social justice things and different things or whatever, she seems to make such a big impact on the conversation. And those of us who are activists, advocates and what have you, folks are like, dissecting and doing all these things. And while there is, like I said, I think there's always critique for how we all can use our power as we gain our power. I'm appreciative for those who do their best with what they have to push the conversation forward. And I think that you're doing so just as well, like, literally by creating this book by, you know, having these rodeos and by taking up space that right now seems to have a lot of charge around it as. As far as whether we belong in those spaces or not. [00:38:50] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm not. I'm appreciative of Beyonce. I know that I'm riding her wave right now. I mean, it's like, literally the day the album came out, it was like every article was like, Beyonce's new album and Ivan's book, it was just like, right underneath it. You seen those alligators that have birds in their mouth that pick their teeth? I'm one of them birds in Beyonce's mouth right now. [00:39:16] Speaker A: Yes. No, I totally get what you're saying, though, because sometimes certain things come out, and when you have content that is close to that and you've been doing the work, all of a sudden it's showing up like a footnote or in the Google alerts and different things in bottom of the articles. So just, again, congratulations on being able to do this work, be able to find joy, to have a family, to have balance in life and all of this, because I think that alone is an achievement, you know, to. To find balance and all that. So congratulations, number one on that. What is. What is next for you? [00:39:53] Speaker C: We're going to keep doing this, you know, even after it's no longer hot, we're gonna keep going. Because I as. I believe in it. I believe in it to my core. You know, like I said, it's coming up on a decade of doing this work, and I've gone, wow, the first rodeo that I went to, being the only photographer there, to showing up at that same rodeo and seeing hundreds of photographers. [00:40:13] Speaker A: So are there going to be different editions or volumes of the book or. [00:40:17] Speaker C: There might be. You know, I'm gonna keep shooting, like. [00:40:19] Speaker A: So how does it. So how does it work if you're. If you're doing it over like. So you. When did you publish the book? [00:40:25] Speaker C: It's out April 30th. [00:40:27] Speaker A: April 30th. Okay, great. So this is an accumulation. Okay, so then. So then this is accumulation of all you have now. And you're like, okay, well, I'm going to keep doing this. So then I. So then there might be either a Volume two or another edition. [00:40:40] Speaker C: There might be a Volume two. There might be a Volume three. I don't know. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna keep doing my thing. I'm gonna keep posting the rodeo. I want to keep trying to get athletes sponsored, because that's what I believe in, and that feeds my soul. There's another project that's really talking to me that I'm a little scared of, but it's a. It's a project about the church that I grew up in, and I really want to. Want to go and do that. Do a project about the Church of God in Christ. And Kojic. Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:09] Speaker A: You grew up coaching. [00:41:10] Speaker C: I grew up hardcore Kojic. Yeah. [00:41:12] Speaker A: I grew up hardcore Kojic. Pentecostal Church of God in Christ, Greater Grace Temple Church of God in Christ. [00:41:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Speaking in tongues, falling out, doing all of it. Yeah. [00:41:20] Speaker C: I grew up at Christian Tabernacle Church of God in Christ in Kansas City, Kansas, and Kansas City, Missouri. And, yeah, they were casting out demons. [00:41:27] Speaker A: So where are you. Where are you now? Where are you now with. You grew up Kojic. Where are you now with your spirituality? [00:41:33] Speaker C: You know, I ran away from it in my 20s, and I was just like, I'm done with that. It was. It was too much. You know, see him seeing pastor, you know, having. Having multiple mistresses and steal the money and all this stuff. It was a lot. And then. And then I came back to it in my 30s and really started to appreciate what the church was and appreciate the power that the pastor had and appreciate that he owned that church and was able to control a congregation in the hundreds. And I think it's beautiful. Just all. [00:42:12] Speaker A: It's beautiful when you find the right leadership. Yeah. [00:42:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's beautiful. Just the music, the style, the way that we worship, I think is. Is like nothing else in the entire world. [00:42:23] Speaker A: And I agree. [00:42:24] Speaker C: And I just want to celebrate it, and I want to go in and. And just like, capture that world. I don't know what it looks like now. I know in the 90s, it was crazy, but now I have no. No clue what the Church. [00:42:35] Speaker A: Look, yeah, I, I, you know, I've been in and out to visit, you know, because I like to visit and fellowship with folks. But you know, I, I've been, at least it's been heartwarming to see more inclusive churches. I know that they're still struggling in some of the smaller, more rural towns and areas. Probably like what you're, you know, talking about going back to, but I think it's worth, there's a, a director by the name N and I, well, probably would not, I'm not even going to try to say her last name, but Nneka is a black queer director and she did a documentary called Truth Be Told and it was just really beautiful about sort of growing up in that church space, but growing up in that church space. Queer. You know, I really do hope that, because you said you came back around to it, you know, I, it is my hope and my wish because of so much of the spiritual abuse that people have endured that they are able to come back to something, even if it's not Christianity, to something that gives them language to, to speak to the spiritual aspect of their lives. You know, because I think unfortunately when we are oppressed in those spaces and run away from those spaces, we're really running away from ourselves in the sense that it's like you still have something that needs to be spoken to. It just doesn't need to be in that house or that container. But now something is being untreated because someone claimed dominion over something that they couldn't in the first place. [00:44:18] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I, I, I left it and had a big old God shaped hole in my life and I just, I just couldn't fill it with anything else. But, but God and I needed some, some measure of spirituality in my life to feel complete. And it doesn't have to, you know, I don't have to speak in tongues. I don't have to put the doily on somebody that's passed out. I don't have to, I don't have to do the full thing, but I have to have some measure of spirit spiritual practice to really feel like a full person. And you know, it's something that I, I encourage my kids to. Again, like, if that's not who they are, that's fine. But we say our prayers every night and they, they know, they know who God is and that's amazing. That's, that's my goal to just, just present that to them and teach them that, how to connect with that part. [00:45:07] Speaker A: Of themselves that's Amazing. Well, just congratulations on building a beautiful life. It's hot out here for everybody, especially when you're in these unexpected places around the country. Portland, Oregon. And where can folks follow you and find you online? [00:45:27] Speaker C: I'm just on it. I'm on Instagram. Barely. I post like a couple of times a month, but when I post, it's hot. [00:45:36] Speaker A: But it's hot. [00:45:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Because this work is hard to get. You know, these photos are difficult. You know, sometimes I'm risking my life get these photos. So that's E I G H T S, E, C S. And then. And then I'm on LinkedIn if you want to do business. So. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm always about business. I'm gonna go. I'm go. Go ahead and find you on LinkedIn. [00:46:01] Speaker C: I love LinkedIn. [00:46:03] Speaker A: I do, too, because it's a little bit more serious and people not doing too much usually. But thank you so much, Ivan, for sharing this time with me and just giving us a. A closer look at what black rodeo culture is like. I'm personally going to go get the book. Folks who are listening, I'm encouraging to go pick up that book and put it on your coffee table and have an experience that's a little bit more than scrolling. Like slow down and. And. And enjoy time with some black cowboy. [00:46:31] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:46:32] Speaker A: And cowgirls. Is there some cowgirls in there, too? [00:46:35] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I use. When I use the word cowboy, I use it as a. As a gender. [00:46:42] Speaker A: Gender neutral term. [00:46:43] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, there's a lot of. There's a lot of sisters in there. I'd say it's like half and half. [00:46:49] Speaker A: Wow, that's amazing. I can't wait to get this book. April 29th or April 30th. [00:46:54] Speaker C: April 30th. [00:46:54] Speaker A: It'll be out April 30th. [00:46:56] Speaker C: Anywhere that they sell books. Go. Go to Barnes and Noble, actually, because I'm trying to get that number up. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Okay, well, you heard them. Go to Barnes and Noble. And we're gonna buy that book from. I'm gonna buy it from Barnes and Noble. That's where I'm getting from. Thank you so much. And we will be right back. All right, thank you again to Ivan McClellan for showing us that black folks. [00:47:16] Speaker B: We'Ve always been country and that there's. [00:47:18] Speaker A: Space for us at the rodeo, even if you are black and lgbtq. I am standing in the middle of a cemetery with no wig on outside my trailer trying to finish this podcast episode and upload it for you all before midnight. Hits because I'm going to be doing an overnight shoot. So before we go, I'll just drop. [00:47:38] Speaker B: This quick Buddhist breadcrumb and talk about cause and effect. In Buddhism, we really don't subscribe to. [00:47:48] Speaker A: Notions of good and bad. [00:47:50] Speaker B: We try to refrain from that. Some people do. [00:47:52] Speaker A: But we really try to refrain from. [00:47:53] Speaker B: That because we understand that life is. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Made up of a bunch of causes. And what we do is try to focus on the causes that we are creating in our lives that yield the. [00:48:06] Speaker B: Effects of positivity and peace and not more suffering. So this week, I want you, instead of judging your circumstances and situations as good and bad, start to look at it as cause and effect and start to be more intentional with the causes. [00:48:25] Speaker A: That you are creating with your life. No opportunity wasted, y'all. Me.