Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Welcome back to now. No opportunity wasted. I'm your host, Angelica Ross.
So this episode is part of a continuation where I am bravely releasing episodes that I was previously a little hesitant to share. If you've been following along, you know that I've been digging through the vault and sharing those real, raw conversations that initially made me just a little bit uncomfortable. And so this episode is no exception. Today we have Jerome Tramel joining us. And at the time of recording this, I was still building now my podcast brand. And so I held back from releasing this episode because I thought that my conversation with Jerome and when we brought up Gerard Carmichael and his show might have been a little too messy. I was trying to protect my budding brand and wasn't sure if diving into topics like black gay men habitually dating white men and the internalized dynamics at play would be too much. You know, I didn't know if there was going to be too much for the girls, so.
But in hindsight, I do realize that these are exactly the kind of conversations that I love having. Fun, honest, and informative. Jerome is not only a talented producer working with shows like those on Fox Soul and with stars like Vivica Fox and the Queens, but he also never holds back when it comes to speaking his truth. I love that about him. And we get into all of it, from his journey into television production to the dynamics of social media, pop culture, and the complexities of representation within our community. Okay, but before we dive into all of that, let's start, as we always do, with a little wisdom from Buddhism. Day by day. Wisdom for a Modern Life by Daisaku Ikeda. Today's quote for March 10th is quote.
There is a great difference between simply living a long life and living a full and rewarding life. What's really important is how much. How much rich. Excuse me, how much rich texture and color we can add to our lives during our stay here on Earth, however long that stay may be. Quality is the true value, not quantity. Okay? It's a beautiful reminder that it's not about how long we live, but how well we live. And it aligns perfectly with this podcast mission. My podcast mission to explore life's layers, add texture, and make every single moment count.
Now, I got some important news. Before we continue, I just want to take a moment to address some deeply concerning stuff that broke out this week. Okay. The U.S. customs and Immigration ICE recently arrested Mahmoud. You know what? And let me make sure, because I know I'm not going to say this right, because I did not. I should have listened to the name Mahmoud Khalil. I think it is.
A Palestinian activist and a recent Columbia University graduate. Khalil was known for his leadership during last year's pro Palestinian protest on campus. His attorney, Amy Greer, reported that ICE agents said they were ordered by the State Department to revoke his green card.
Yeah. Khalil, who is married to a US citizen and expecting a child, is currently being held at an immigration detention facility in Elizabeth, New Jersey. This arrest follows a recent executive order signed by, you know who, you know, Donald Duck Trump, aimed at combating perceived antisemitism on college campuses, which critics often argue is being used to target pro Palestinian activists. Critics being me. Me being one of them. Critics. But let's be clear, this kind of repression isn't exclusive to Republican leadership. I recently spoke at Cornell University where there was also. This was back in October, and there was also an upward roar on campus as ICE attempted to deport a student back to Africa for participating in pro Palestinian protests.
And that incident happened under then President Biden.
So, you know, this behavior is not isolated to one party.
For those who want to blame third party voters, as if this behavior wasn't already happening under Democrats, let's not ignore that the dangerous precedents set by Democrats have allowed Republicans to capitalize on. Capitalize, capitalize on it and escalate these tactics.
The same could be said for the attack on Trans Rights. Democrats created a dangerous precedent and the Republicans are now taking it even further, literally capitalizing on the groundwork laid before them.
So we need to keep this in perspective and hold all leaders accountable, regardless of their party affiliation. Amen. Okay, so now we're going to kick it to this week's Make It Make Sense segment. You know, I get my girl that brings in the truth. You know, Renita Shannon, she's always, always breaking it down. And this week is just no different. So let's listen to my conversation with Renita Shannon as we try to make things make sense. Okay, now, Renita, we gotta make some stuff make sense because it's been a lot of foolery going on in the past week since we last talked. So now, I mean, so much stuff that we really can't even fit it all in. But let's just start with the fact that people is getting fired left and right. Like, left and right. And nobody's safe. Like, nobody's job is safe. Not even your federal employers. Is it every federal, like how. Who's getting fired?
[00:06:50] Speaker B: So, no, you're right. Everybody's getting fired is what it feels like. Because every day we hear the Trump administration is firing more and more federal workers from any agency he can. It feels like any agency he can think of. So it's the CIA. It's, you know, folks in the va it's all these different. Different agencies. And the reports coming out are that a lot of the folks are firing are people that. They don't even know what these folks did before. They don't even. They didn't even know what they did.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Is that why they sent the email? To be like, what did you. What do you do in the back? I mean, how are you even fire people and you don't even know what they do?
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: I mean, I would say that probably has a little bit to do with why, like air traffic controllers and stuff that there are people they're getting rid of. And now all of a sudden we're having incidents.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Right. Support staff with the faa. You're right. No, it's insane. And, yeah, that email stunt that Elon did, to have people email five things that they did that was important this week to justify their job did not go over so well.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: But were people complying? Like, is this something. Because you think this is. If this is a directive that's coming from the Office of the President and you're a federal employer, what does the average federal employer feel? Are they feeling like they have to comply, or do people understand the moment and that with a little time the court is going to say, well, to.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Your point, this week the courts came and told the Trump administration that they were not allowed to fire hundreds of probationary federal workers that they were planning on firing. So it's been a mess. You said, now make it make sense, but we really can't make sense of it, because how you fire people that you actually need and that are critical to make the government run, and then you try to rescind the firing to bring them back to work, but you don't even have their contact information. None of this makes sense.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: And. Well, none of it makes sense, especially like you're saying firing people you think are disposable, that you don't need. You don't even know what they do. And now here we are firing trans people out of the military, booted out of the military. What is it? Is an executive order. Is that what he's doing? Is that what this is?
[00:08:55] Speaker B: So the Trump administration sent a memo to the Pentagon saying, memo, yes, saying iOS press release.
I mean, usually we just get a tweet from him in the middle of the night. So a memo is a step up from a tweet.
[00:09:10] Speaker A: That is true.
Okay, so. And then there's this order. And I've seen a lot of friends, trans people, who are saying, I just got the notification that I've got 30 days that I'm being processed out.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: We're laughing about it, but it's actually not funny because it goes to your point. Um, yeah. So for those of you who don't know what actually has happened, the Trump administration told the PENTAGON they have 30 days to identify everybody who is transgender and currently serving in the military. And they have to remove those folks from the military unless they can get an exemption. In order to get an exemption, somebody within the Pentagon would have to make a case as to why this person who is serving is so important for war fighting capabilities that they need to remain. So really, it is just targeting and attacking trans folks who are proudly serving in the military who have not had any disciplinary actions or there's no other reason to be kicking them out of the military except for the fact that they are trans.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: Not to mention, I mean, it's a struggle because I don't know too many people these days wanting to just volunteer to, you know, volunteer their body to the military. Especially knowing that sometimes we are starting a war that should never happen in the first place.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Right. And so you're a veteran. What went through your mind when you decided to enlist?
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Child, I don't know what the heck was going through my mind when I decided to enlist, to be honest, because, like, I went to the physical examination with curly blonde hair. I think I had green contacts in. Pretty sure my toenails were still painted pink. And I was trying to pass, you know, for straight. But. But to be honest, what I think was going through my mind at that time, I was not even 18.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: I was 17 years old.
I had left home from Racine, Wisconsin, and I wanted to be an actor in New York. And I naively thought that moving to Rochester, New York was close enough to be go to auditions, and that was like six hours away.
But I was just. Felt like I was just being a disappointment to my family. They wanted me to go to college. I wasn't in college, but part of the reason why I wasn't there, I wanted to study music, they wanted me to study business. I didn't want to feel like I was wasting their money. When I come from a family who is trying to scrape things together and they basically tell us, we ain't got the money for you to waste. So, you know, I just.
I Wanted to go to school, but I knew my family just couldn't afford for me to figure it out. So I figured maybe, maybe if I went to the military, not only could I get my education paid for, but maybe it would make me straight. I thought that it would turn me straight and toughen me up.
But, you know, all it did, honestly, was make me more convicted in who I was and knowing that I am going to be me to the grave.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: Right. And so to your point, I mean, a lot of folks are enlisting in the military who feel like they are being presented with two choices. Either go to college or go to the military, or you have to find.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Something to do stripping, something, something to do selling drugs. Something, something.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: And so they are already, you know, in the military and they are serving, and now they are just being targeted for no other reason and being kicked out of the military. And so, you know, this. This whole thing is really insane. When you look at the language around what the directives are, it talks about if a trans person is given an exemption to stay, they have to demonstrate 36 months of being showing that they are stable in their sex and also that they have never tried to transition to another gender. I mean, it's just like, at the end of the day, all this is garbage. They are trying to forcibly kick trans folks out of the military.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: That's all it is.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: I doubt that you'll see.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: It don't make no sense.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: It doesn't make sense.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: We ain't no making that make sense.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: You can't make it.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: We can't make that make sense, because it just is a continuation of trying to remove trans people from everyday life, right? From sports, from public accommodations, of using a public restroom, from us having protection on a job, having protections in schools. They're just trying to make it a scary place for us to be ourselves. And they are also welcoming the rhetoric about trans people that is violent in and of itself.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Well, and the thing that gets me about it is the fact that, you know, folks continue to vote for politicians like Donald Trump and continue to vote for conservatives who it seems like they have a laser focus on trans folks. It's like all this that they are doing to target trans folks, how does that make it easier for anybody in the general public to pay their bills? How does that make it easier for you to raise your family? How does that make it. How does that make your life easier? Like, what is it that folks expect? You think that all of a sudden, if Trump accomplishes all of whatever he's trying to do to. To attack trans folks. You expect that you'll just see less trans folks walking down the street. First of all, you don't even know who's trans. So it's just like a lot of this is. You have to ask. I mean, what is the point?
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Well, speaking of, you don't even know who's trans. I don't know if you saw it, but there was a video that someone posted on, like, reels, you know, one of the social media things, and it was a guy who was trying to get with a girl, and she invited him to church and everything. And he's like, going along with all this stuff, but she was like, well, I. But I gotta, you know, come up front and tell you something. He goes, wait, what? You're not a man, are you? She's like, no, I'm celibate. And it's like, first of all, how did I get in this?
[00:15:06] Speaker B: Right?
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Like, y'all are so obsessed with trans people.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Obsessed.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: How did we even get in this conversation? And then what I'm saying, I end up commenting on the situation because people were just automatically just laughing off the bat. And this is why you can't trust allies, because they're sitting there laughing and nobody knows to stop the joke. And I saw, I comment in the things saying, gotta love the casual transphobia.
And first, people didn't get. What? What do you mean? And then when they listen back again, they were like, damn, I can't even believe I first of all missed that. But secondly, throw the whole video away. The whole video. Not funny. Because why is it that men think that manipulating women and trying to present yourself as something you're not only to have sex with them is. Is. Is manipulation? It's actually predatory. It's a lot of different things, but it's like it's. At the end of the day, it's not funny.
It's not funny because the joke is going to end up on you, not just trans people.
So people laughing along with the Dave Chappelle jokes about trans people, you might be the one that they stop at the bathroom. Just like they stopped a cisgender woman recently, I think, in Texas at the bathroom.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: That's what always happens. I mean, people have to realize that there is no way to attract. To attack one community within our society without it affecting everybody else.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: I know that a lot of people in my community specifically are really scared. They're really afraid. Because if it's not one thing, it's another. It's one thing after another one. We started to deal with the fact that our passports and our documents are being basically seized at this point. And in question of if they will even renew it, and if they do renew it, they might even put a gender marker that put your safety in question. And now people who are serving the military, they're not no longer able to be there as well.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Right. And so, I mean, the question that folks need to really ask themselves, ourselves is, did you elect somebody so that they could spend all their time attacking trans folks? How? What does that do for your life? What does that do for your well being? How does that make it easier to live in the country?
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Gabrielle Union. Q. Gabrielle Union, do you feel any smarter and do you want to make a bank account any bigger?
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Do you want to keep voting for people who spend all of their time laser focused on trans folks? Because that's what conservatives have been doing, and it's not new. This is, this is something that has been a, you know, drumbeat that's been going for several years. They're always coming up with ways to, you know, stoke cultural wars.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: But my question is they. Sure.
But how is it that people who are not a part of MAGA still keep getting seduced to be anti trans, to be anti black, to be pro police? Because there's a situation. This is what frustrates me the most, is now that Trump has at his will our military, our powerful military. But the fact that the Rove was paved for him. People are talking about the fact that, what are you going to do when they put the military on our children, protesting at the schools? I'm like, were you not watching the past year, right, when Biden was president and they unleashed and shot? I remember rubber bullets and people were going to hospitals. I thought to myself, I don't have an ovary in my body, but if I had a child, I would be up there in rollers.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, this has been a ongoing thing of attacking dissent. And definitely the Biden administration did a lot of things to make it really tough for people's voices to be heard. And the Trump administration now has all of this power. They have precedent, precedents. They have processes that have been built in a bipartisan fashion to attack dissent. And it's really unfortunate because right now, the main thing that we need to be doing is dissenting and not going along with this. So you the State of the Union last night, I didn't watch it because I was boycotting it.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: I lasted about five minutes. I lasted just about as long as Al Green lasted. And matter of fact, I Didn't even know it was two Al Greens until last night. I know some of y'all didn't know either, so don't even come for me like that. But the fact that he showed more resilience and power standing up because Medicaid probably actually affects him. And, and, and not to mention the people who are going to be there to protect us, they sitting there holding signs. Now, listen, I understand that that's decorum or whatever, but what the hell do we do with decorum when they bring in what they bring into the. To the table when they bring in, they're bringing. It's. I don't want to use weapons as the, you know, sort of the metaphor, but it's just we're not fighting the same game. And so I feel the moment Al Green walked out, they should have been in a line walking out. Right with him.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: The fact that he thought he could shoot shame them talking about, you're not gonna clap for anything that I would do. What is there to clap for?
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Right. No, you're preaching to the choir. Serving in the Georgia House representatives for six years, I definitely face similar things to, you know, anytime that I would do anything. For example, I put my body on the line trying to filibuster the bill to outlaw abortion in Georgia. And it was only Democrats who were asking me to sit down because they were afraid that I was breaking decorum, because I was breaking decorum because we could not continue to go business as usual. So I applaud Representative Al Green for standing up last night. Democrats should have been with him. And the issue. Let's just talk about the issue as to why he was willing to break decorum. The issue of potential cuts to Medicaid. This is so important, I cannot tell you. Cutting Medicaid will affect everyone. Let me say that again. This is how. So even if you are not on Medicaid, what most people don't realize is that the local hospitals that you see, they really depend on Medicaid to stay open to pay the bills. Open. Right. So let me ask you what would happen if the nearest hospital was an hour away from you? Think about that. If some. If a person has a heart attack or gets in a car accident, the amount of time it takes to get to get to the hospital can either be life ending or life saving.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: And that Uber might not get there that fast because, you know, in this economy, we taking a Uber to the hospital.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, he was really standing up for this because people need to understand that a lot of the things that the Trump administration is doing, it's not just attacking one community, that it's attacking everyone. And this Medicaid issue is that serious because if, even if you are not on Medicaid, everyone needs a hospital that is close distance to them so that when an emergency happens, they can get the care that they need. And so here's the other thing. Trump is saying this week that he's not going to touch Medicaid, but that is a lie. The number of cuts that they have said they need to make to the budget in order provide, in order to provide these tax cuts for the rich, you would have to gut Medicaid to do that. There's no way you could create a budget that doesn't cut Medicaid. And so that's why representing.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: So he lying to somebody. We just don't know who he lying to.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: I bet my money that he is lying to the public because that has been his track record.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: That is that. Because, I mean, I feel like his buddies would hold him accountable if he doesn't follow through with these tax cuts.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Well, we saw how he got elected. I mean, first he didn't really care for Elon. I think he was talking crap about electric vehicles, all types of stuff. Then as soon as Elon started majorly funding his campaign, Elon was his best buddy. So, I mean, you ask yourself, like, who do you think that he would lie to if it meant his, if the choice was between his super rich friends who have funded his campaign and billionaires versus the general public who's already voted for him and at this point can't take those votes back.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: America, you in danger, girl.
Listen, I mean, there's a lot more that I wanted to cover this week, but, you know, we'll save it because there's just a lot of show to get through today. We could not make it all make sense. I don't think we are going to be able to make everything make sense because some of it just ain't going to make sense. But we tried.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: We tried.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Thank you so much for breaking through that with me. Renita, we will be right back.
I've been preparing something, something powerful, something designed to break cycles, to change everything you knew about yourself.
Because let's be real, transformation ain't easy. It's uncomfortable. It gets you to face the parts of yourself you've been avoiding. But. But on the other side, there's a version of you waiting to emerge. And once you see it, you'll never want to go back. It's almost time Are you ready?
Now that you've got all the updates on everything, let's get into this week's conversation with Jerome Tramell. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, honey. Get into it. All right, y'all. Welcome to now. Jerome Tramell. How are you?
[00:24:17] Speaker C: I'm good. How are you? Thanks for inviting me.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Listen, I. Listen, we. You and I had to have our moment to be able to Kiki, and really especially this. This specific kind of Kiki, because this podcast is about no opportunity wasted, which means how folks like ourselves, like you end up making the most out of some challenges and opportunities. Because the thing is, is that, like, when people look at our lives and sometimes look at the type of things that you're doing, they kind of maybe can gloss over the fact that there, it comes with its own challenges. And also, it ain't got nothing to do with luck, baby, because luck may only get you into the room, but it don't keep you there. And so we want to talk about some. What it means for you to be taking up space the way that you're taking up space.
And, you know, being a producer with shows like on that are on, like, Fox Soul, working with stars like, you know, Vivica Fox and the queens that had their. Their show as well. But just you kind of not only have been producing, but where I be gagging as well is that you also just don't hold back when it comes to anything, really. And that's. That's my kind of Judy.
[00:25:37] Speaker C: Yeah, we can't afford to. We can't afford to.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: You know, and so I want to just start off by giving the people a little bit of a background into, like, how did you get into television production?
[00:25:52] Speaker C: Got it. Okay, so born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And there's not much to do in Milwaukee.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Wait, did we talk about that?
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Yeah, we touched on it a little bit, but not really. Yeah, but I was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: Cause I was born and raised in Racine, Wisconsin. Just over the border. Exactly. So. And I also lived in Milwaukee. Okay, cute, Cute. Okay, so. Okay, start. As you were saying.
[00:26:17] Speaker C: Yeah. So I went to Rufus King High School, which is, you know, number one high school in Wisconsin. I went off to college, and so in college, I wanted to be a teacher so bad, so I majored in education and then did a minor, like, mass communications. But I was so fascinated with, like, social media, and Twitter had just began. So when everyone was like, how do you work this with Twitter? I don't have one. I was on There kind of cultivating space, taking up space, giving my opinion about award shows, talk shows, the latest new iPhone that just came out, or the latest shoes. And so, like, we created a community on Twitter known as now Black Twitter. And so I would talk about, like, social issues, celebrities, the gossip celebrity.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: You're saying this was just on Twitter?
[00:27:06] Speaker C: This was just on Twitter. And so what happened was a lot of, like, the celebrity entertainment websites would take my tweets and take some of my commentary, pick it up, post it on their websites. And so it just continuously grew. And some of the celebrities I would talk about, their fans started following me. And then some of the celebrities started following me. So I guess they thought, like, oh, let's follow him, let's get in with him, because he knows what's going on. He must be somebody important. Little do they know, I was in my dorm room at Lane College, a small HBCU in Jackson, Tennessee. I'm in my dorm room eating ramen noodles, just tweaking my little life away because I had nothing. I had nothing to do, didn't really have any money, so that was my thing. I graduated, went on to teach. I did elementary school for some years, did education administration, a director, and always did social media commentary on the side. And I decided that I didn't like the.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Well, you know, let me ask you this, let me pause for the cause for a second because. No. So you, your. Your education was in being a teacher and doing that.
Were you out during that time?
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Yes, yes. I'd never been in. I didn't have the. Sometimes I call it a privilege. I didn't have the privilege of having a coming out story or being able to blend. I didn't have that privilege. Because that's a privilege a little bit. Right, So I didn't have privilege, right?
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:28:31] Speaker C: Always was flamboyant, always was outspoken, always was like in your face. Always was feminine. Like, I've always been me and I never hid that. So.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: And so that wasn't. Did that present a challenge going through the education, like, to teach?
[00:28:47] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Coincidentally, I had more challenges coming from women parents that I taught because they. When they see a black man, and I was in elementary school, but before I got there, I was in like preschool and Head Start. So when they see a man in Head Start, you know, with, you know, K3, K4, K5, they're like, why is this man here with these little kids? So it automatically put this label on me that I must be some type of predator. And so that was a challenge. Then I even had one parent who was like, why is this man teaching my kid? I don't want a man teaching my kid. He must like little girls. It's like, yeah. So I had more of that. I had more of that than I had people having problem with me being a gay person at the time. I've had some issues with that. I have some parents who are like, I don't want my son to be in a classroom. You know, can I pass on here? Can I? Well, you know, yes, you can.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: You could be you.
[00:29:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't. I don't want my son being in the classroom with no faggot, with no sissy and all that other stuff, which. We know how that goes. Even some of the dads try to holler at me, but neither here nor there. All right, So I had those challenges, but it came to a point where I was laid off, and I decided, like, I don't want to be in education anymore because it wasn't a passion for me anymore. Students, I love them, I love teaching, but all the other stuff that came with it. So I decided to get out of it. And like I said, while I was teaching, I was doing my social media stuff on the side, not knowing that it'll become anything. I was just tweeting about whatever was going on, and some of those networks would contact me and say, like, hey, we have a new season starting. Can you tweet about this? We'll swing you a swag bag. And that gradually moved on to, like, we'll pay you to tweet about this live tweet, take over our social media. And that's how that started. Like I said, I was tweeting about celebrities. Their fans will follow me, the celebrities will follow me, and they just thought, like, I was some voice that they needed to be, you know, connected to. So that's how that started.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: And I love this story because I think that people sometimes get too wrapped up into these predestined, conventional pathways to. To things that they think is the only way. Like, and the reality is, is even when with technology, the world that we're living in right now, the real main question for the interview is, can you do what I'm asking you to do? Can you actually do it? Whether you got a bachelor's degree or not is not necessarily my concern. If you really do what I need you to do and do it well. So how. Like, so we also. You're also kind of known, you know, to really pop it off, you know, like, you don't mind you know, getting the girls together. Neither do I. But, like, you do not mind getting the girls together. Does. Has that ever. I guess because you're in the space of social media and pop culture, maybe that fits. But does it ever feel like. Do you ever feel that you have to watch what you're saying on social media?
[00:31:58] Speaker C: So that's tricky, right? So when I was in education, I. I definitely did. There are some things I was like, oh, I really want to say this, but I can. Or let me figure out how. How to rephrase this. Still get my point across. But some don't sting like it needs a sting unless you add some colorful words, you know, throw some spices, seasoning on it. And so I was very careful while I was in education, but I made a vow to myself that whatever job, that or career that I was going to get into, I was going to make sure that they knew exactly who I was. So then I'm not held to a certain standard and fall in. Yeah. So, like, people now at some of my jobs will call my jobs and tell them me. And they're like, yeah, we know. Because they are aware. And I let them know, like, hey, this is the way I feel about this. I have a no tolerance for this. Homophobia, racism, transphobia, all this other stuff. These are some of my tweets. I let them know. So there's no surprise. They can't be like, jerome, you said this on Twitter. Yeah, I told you that in the interview too, my love. Like, so there's. There's no surprise. And some of my jobs are. Are happy to have that because that right into the work that I do.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: And it push. It helps push the conversation and people are still talk. Talking about all the things, you know. And what I like about you as well is that this is what. Because I love this about somebody who can hold their own and can kind of go to. Because you and I, we were under the comment section just recently talking about was it. Was it the Gerard Carmichael Show? Was it that? Or was it. Yes, yes, child. Let's just even talk about that for a second. But like, just saying that, like, I. What I loved about it was you and I could have difference in of opinion and still. And it be strong. And I still know that ain't no love lost here. And we not like at each other's throat. It's nothing like that. It's literally like we are talking through this in a way. Way that, you know, and I feel, to me, I really feel like I like passion and conversations and Certain things, because at least I know what you. What really is important to you, what matters. It's really disrespect is where we can turn it left if we want to. You know, where people get in the comment section and they want to turn it left, we can do that. But, like, that's not, you know, you know, what was going on. So let's pause for the cause and talk about that for just a quick second, because I know that you. This. You're in this space of, like, this is something that's going on in pop culture right now. Gerard Carmichael has his reality show on HBO Max. And there's been definitely mixed reviews about, you know, the things that have come across.
Listen, here's my thing. And I haven't really, like, spoke on it more than just what was in the comment section.
But Gerard, do you know how old he is?
[00:34:39] Speaker C: I'm. I'm not sure. I would have to say.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: He's got to be 20s.
[00:34:44] Speaker C: Oh, really?
[00:34:45] Speaker A: 30S, I think. Late 20s, maybe. Late 20s, early 30s. Okay. What have you. But either way, what kind of bothers me about situations like this is as people are going through this sort of voyeuristic place and figuring things out, sometimes I think there's an egotistical or almost like this focus on oneself in such a way that you're not acknowledging the community that you have that has grappled with some of these issues that you are grappling with. So to. To make it seem like not only because it, of course, is his own experience, so it's his first, you know, he's coming across these conversations or what have you. But that might be his first time maybe, you know, stepping and having this conversation. But to a producer and people who are putting the narrative together, they got a plan. Yeah, there's not. It's not. It's not just this first, you know, it's what have you. So to me, the egregious thing that I saw was when HBO Max gave Sam J.
A show number one. Do you know Sam J. The comedian? The lesbian comedian?
[00:36:04] Speaker C: No.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: So Sam James is lesbian comedian. They end up giving them a show that kind of looked like had the feel of like a Dave Chappelle show.
[00:36:13] Speaker C: Okay, but.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: But so it's comedy and what have you, but it's a black lesbian saying all kind of problematic things.
And what white people love to do is find someone black to say and do the problematic things on camera and so to entertain and so.
[00:36:36] Speaker C: Hey, sucking jive. Yeah.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: When I. The first thing I wasn't Even offended. Let me tell you something. The first thing that was the strike against me with her was her joke saying that trans women are the X men of the LGBT community.
Okay, I get the double entendre. I get X Men. Okay, okay.
You know, I get all of that. It's problematic. It's messed up, especially as someone who is in community is supposed to be under the umbrella with us. But that wasn't even really what had got me. What had got me was when she did a skit that was what if.
You know, there's. What she would basically say, what if black folks got together and created our own Constitution? Because I think the issue and the problem was is that black people we've been following, they white constit, and we never come together and created our own stuff.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: All right.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: So you're dismissing every black movement that has happened where we have organized and tried to create our own situations, whether that's even been from the Black Panther Party to things even before that, that the system burned down, infiltrated, arrest, dismantled, all those different things. But it plays into a narrative that we're lazy black people who just haven't created our own things.
[00:38:04] Speaker C: As. As if it's a new concept. Like, I have this bright idea.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: So this is where I'm going with this with Gerard and his show, is what I'm saying. This is nothing new. And not only is it nothing new, it's actually an issue that we're grappling with right now in the LGBT community because some folks don't seem to have the range. I keep seeing it over and over again. Folks don't have the range to be able to talk about interracial relationships.
[00:38:30] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Or it's not wrong. Nothing wrong with. Nothing wrong with having a interracial relationship. Is there something wrong with if you don't have the reins to talk about.
[00:38:39] Speaker C: The situation or why or why you have the interracial. Interracial relationship.
[00:38:45] Speaker A: Like, that's what I'm. That's what I mean, you chopping it up to. I don't see color, baby. You are internalizing white talking points.
[00:38:54] Speaker C: I know. And a lot of them say out their own mouths, like, I don't date black. Oh. Or. Or, you know, they have an attitude.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: And this is where. This is where. That's where the gag be for me, because I know way too many people who will actually admit that.
But then you also have folks who understand that that don't really sound quite right. So they try to position it in a different way, in a softer way. When. No.
And you try to talk about preferences without realizing how society helps us create those preferences.
[00:39:23] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. But you hear all those kind of excuses. You hear like, you know, you know, black people, I mean, they too loud. I don't connect with them or, you know, like, I don't feel like we don't have any chemistry where I can't find a black educated man or educated woman or. I grew up around white people, so that's what I like. You hear every excuse and which is fine. Have your thing. Right. I think it becomes an issue when you then slam your own race and try, you know, to try to lift up, you know, non black people. And I also think it's an issue where they stereotype us and put us in one box. Right. And think that, you know, white is right.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Well, listen, my friend, my, my, my friend, colleague, former colleague, you know, Billy Porter, you know, we have talked about some of these things as well and been had some very interesting conversations in this. And you know, one thing that I talked to Billy about was that like we, so many of us have the experience of being bullied, of having our, our own be our first bullies and so, and sometimes the worst ones because, you know, black people, we are good, we are really good at ribbing and really getting folks like, that's why we run social media, Twitter, all this kind of stuff. And so. But also, you know, the violence and the bullying and the hyper masculinity and all these things that were happening, I get, you know, and then. But what happens is when I moved out of my house from Racine, Wisconsin and went over the border to Chicago, Illinois, where there was rainbows going down the street and you got all the bars and what have you. No one told me or prepared me for the fact that I was going into a white centered community, LGBT community.
So when I, it would initially I would say, because when I came out, that street that is the symbol of gay neighborhood is white. I didn't realize until I met some folks, Joe's Pub, I think it was East St. Orion or something. There was all these other clubs on the south side of Chicago. That's where Flame On Road, that's where folks like that would perform. We. I would go see them and like playing with us in Stitches, I'm talking about. And also rough and stuff.
We gonna get there? Absolutely, we're gonna get there. You know, so, so you know what I think a lot of us were not prepared for was the interesting experience of racism that we would experience that at the same time Fetishes us. Fetishizes us. While also still having these intention. These anti black ways in which that whole community moves. So much so that I'm part of a movement that had to go to the national, like LGBTQ organizations to call them out early on on their anti blackness. They're all white boards. They're all this like, we've been doing this stuff for years.
[00:42:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: What happens is, is if you're not careful, if you take one bad apple and say, like, white people do. They all like that, then you start to internalize a perspective and not heal. And I'm gonna tell you, it was a little bit difficult for me because as a black trans woman who was doing sex work, the black man was always the ones for me that I had to fear. Whether it was them talking me out of my coin and not wanting to pay the price or what have you, or whether it was literally dealing with the dudes. I like that. A hood and blah, blah, blah, whatever. But it. They could flip a switch. Once they have. They jollies, they. They flip a switch and all of a sudden they need to hide the evidence, which is you. You understand? So there's this very real fear, or I would say an understandable fear that I had of dealing with black men. But when I tell you, when I recognize that something in me told me, said, okay, Angelica, then you need to develop a radical kind of love. Because you cannot allow fear to keep you from having community with other black men, with black men, with black people. You know, fear of what they're going to say, fear of if they're going to be violent. Fear of this I have to love radically.
[00:43:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:59] Speaker A: That's that. That. What that looks like is still keeping myself safe and not being in the wrong place at the wrong time and trying, you know, like. No. Being aware of my surroundings, like my daddy taught me.
[00:44:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: But it also means that I'm not ending the conversation. I'm not throwing black men away because they haven't fully gotten it yet. It's a little bit irritating, but it is that kind of radical love that we need to offer each other in order for us all to heal and get over this stuff.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's a very valid concern. Right. But today I will also say we have that fear because we're in close proximity. We have that fear because we don't been through certain struggles and some of us don't have that fear of white people. Which is strange to me because if you think about it, being killed off, beaten, hung from trees, the Microaggression, everything. They have been some of the most violent to us as a community, but we don't have that fear with them. We have some safety with them. Which is confusing to me when people.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: Say, like, well, you, you know, I think it's confusing is because of what, why what people think is racism or white supremacy. I think to them it's only those violent actions. And so if the person or people they think they're dealing with are just smiling in their faces, they don't understand the real violence behind supremacy.
[00:45:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, and I, and I can agree with that, but it's just like we have so much fear of our own, but not enough fear of people who created this system, because it's systemic. When you think about black on black violence, this, you know, that narrative, that whole agenda, that's all systemic. Like the violence that we do to each other, a lot of that comes from the root. The root is white supremacy.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: The root is white supremacy for a lot of this stuff. And we're not, we're still. I think some people are still in a remedial class on this one, and they still don't believe it is what it is.
But we'll go snuggle up with that. You know, and the other thing that I kind of had a problem with that editing of that show and, and, and how that was kind of presented was you then have this conversation he's having with Tyler, the creator, who, who basically called him a stupid for saying that he was in love with him and whatnot. And you know, what I thought was interesting about the situation? Of course I don't know the intimacy of their friendship, but when I thought that was insensitive, of course, that Tyler would say something like that, but at the same time, it sounded kind of accurate in the sense of if we have a, if we have a friendship and a relationship. Where are you pulling that from? Yeah, mean, you're. Where are you pulling that from? And, and, and it comes down to also us as individuals trying to place our love in places that are not trying to accept it, that aren't even looking for it, that aren't even, you know, I mean, aren't even putting enough value on you showing up and being. And that love. So to do, to. To be looking in the wrong direction at a black man who you think is your friend, and then jump cut to the next scene and you in with a relationship with a white man. It's like, I tried that and now, look, I'm happy over here, but I'm still Screwing around. But I. This feels like. Oh, my God. It's. Look at. Oh, whatever.
[00:47:34] Speaker C: There was a lot of things with that. Right.
One thing, I think that that's their banter and that's their relationships. But once he told that story, because it hit him. He told that story in an emotional way where, like, that made me upset. But for me, I think that that will be his banter, their relationship. That's how they, you know, talk about stuff. Don't take it too seriously.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: But because he looked like he was trying to take his serious on the camera, it almost looked like he was. It almost looked like a setup, too. It looked like it was. It looked like a. Yeah, it looked like a setup. And that's. That's what also didn't feel right to me because it's like, do you want real stuff or do you want this kind of contrived situation?
[00:48:17] Speaker C: Yeah. So Tyler said that he sent them that text and then they had then talked about it after. And then next thing you know, he invited him to his house to then talk about it on screen. So he wanted that rollout. I think that Jarrod was really hurt by that, but. And I have to say it because, you know, I'm just gonna say what I have to say.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:38] Speaker C: I think that Jarrod has a preference of whiteness, and Tyler has this preference of whiteness. And I think that Jarrod thinks because he has that close proximity because that's who he's intimate with, that he had close enough proximity where Tyler would see him in that way that would be palatable to him, and it wasn't. So it's like, oh, I'm close to whiteness. I don't act like the other blacks. You see, I sleep with white people. And I know your preference is white. Why don't you want me?
And if I have to be honest, I think that, like, I mean, which.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: I think you should be.
[00:49:16] Speaker C: Yeah. I think that us as black people, sometime when we see all these black queer celebrities who date non black, which is almost all of them, if we find them attractive or we see them being successful or they have money, if they preference isn't.
Doesn't make us look desirable or feel desirable, then we have a problem with that.
And I think that once we unpack that we need to be okay with that. Because for me, I'm not feigning after or desiring a man that preferences, white people in the first place. That's just me.
[00:49:57] Speaker A: That's that. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm, you know, it's. It.
I mean, that is me too.
But I think it is.
Here's this, you know, again, I think it is something. A conversation we can have where again, there's a black trans woman, Jabari, I think. I can't think of her last name right now, but she's a model.
She. She was. She was actually was on Pose a couple times as well. I worked with her. But she has a white partner that is queer. I believe as well. I didn't. I may identify as queer, but either way, they did it. They posted a Instagram reel where they were like, we're interracial couple. Of course we censor black issues and black this and liberation and what have you.
They're real to me.
Kind of exemplified really what it ideally should be. And I. Not necessarily that y'all both out here that hard being advocates like can speak all the way like that, but at least that there's this awareness of what the issue is versus oh, girl. We don't really, you know that in our life. We don't really have to. Excuse me.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:21] Speaker A: Because you're in West Hollywood.
[00:51:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: Is that why you don't have to deal with that or whatever. But you know, but at the end of the day, life's gonna remind you that you black. And if you don't, let me tell you, the people who keep getting surprised to find out that water is wet.
How'd you not know that water was wet?
[00:51:42] Speaker C: First of all, you're gonna experience it in your day to day life, how you navigate this world. And even if you don't or if you don't feel penetrated by it, that comment section, when you post that picture of y'all is going to let you know what we think.
You can't get away from it or.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: His family, when you walk out the room, is going to let you know what. What they think about you or your family.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: So I think that's. Well, I think that's interesting that we're all. Because here's the thing. I also think that obviously it's great that we're all talking about it, but here's where I think that it's really ugly and insidious. And I don't think this. Again, my. A lot of what my thing is is actually doesn't even have a lot to do with Jarrod himself.
It just has to do with the unawareness of the piece of the puzzle that you are in their game. I know what you think you're doing, but you aren't the one who is Controlling everything. You really aren't. I know that you are. I know it's your show, right?
[00:52:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: But we know there's a network. We know there's other folks and other people who need to do what they're doing. And so what I'm saying is when is cancelled, when they, when they not call picking Issa Ray shows no more Issa Ray shows up, she said in the media, you know what I'm saying? And so many shows had black shows, good black shows and the lady, black lady sketch show, things like that. All these shows have been cancelled to make room for what?
[00:53:14] Speaker C: Yeah. And so my hobby or deal with that. Right. Because them dating while he's dating. This, that and other. Like for me it's like that's one conversation we can have. But I feel like representation is needed, even if it's something that we don't like ourselves. And for me, while I don't care for the show, I know a lot of black men like that living here in Atlanta. A lot of successful black men, whether they say it public or not, who only date white who also because we got to talk about. There are some black men who fetishize white men as well.
[00:53:51] Speaker A: Of course. Yes.
[00:53:52] Speaker C: So that's another thing. So it's like I see that so much and we have to recognize that is out there. And even though we know it. Because when you look at every black queer male, you can't name one of the high celebrities or household names that's dating another black person. I, I can't name one. Huh?
[00:54:15] Speaker A: Take queer out of it for a second.
[00:54:18] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: Cuz I see a through line.
[00:54:24] Speaker C: Well, for me, I always say I can look at some black, some, some black couples. I can, I can, I can see some black couples.
[00:54:32] Speaker A: That's true. We, we know that they do exist.
[00:54:35] Speaker C: But we, when we in every field too, like in sports and music, I, I can see that.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: But with rappers and athletes and that, you know, folks in the, in that world, you do see a lot when black men get successful, they, you know, again, that's why Cat Williams line had hit so hard was because who was he talking about?
[00:54:56] Speaker C: Yeah, and yeah, and I get that and all that is true. But I'm like, h, when we look at our community, who that's a name, they're like, oh yeah, we know who that is. If they, if they name someone, it's like, oh, who's that? Who they do, what they do. Like you just.
[00:55:11] Speaker A: Who, who you're saying, you're saying, you're saying that we don't know.
[00:55:18] Speaker C: We like, they're not at a level where like they have that celebrity where we, like when you say they name, you know exactly who it is. I can't name not one black couple in our community. I, I can't name not one.
[00:55:31] Speaker A: I know, I know a couple. Like Greg Mathis Junior's son, I think is Greg. Also. He, he has a dark skinned husband, right?
[00:55:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, he has a black husband. But again, that's it.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: And, and then there's like, there's John to. There's, you know, Juan and G. Smalls, you know that.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: No, I'm saying that when we say that.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I know.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Wait, I know what you're saying.
[00:55:56] Speaker A: Absolutely, you're right. Listen, I'm talking about us.
[00:55:58] Speaker C: You know, he like, yeah, Juan. Yeah, but that's, that's, that's close. That's kind of local. Like, I'm talk on the scale where you have like your billy porters, your RuPaul, your little NAS X's, your all these black.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:56:12] Speaker C: You don't. And it's like, that's crazy.
[00:56:14] Speaker A: Well, I don't never. I don't know. I don't think no matter how famous Saucy Santana gets, I don't see her with no white man.
[00:56:25] Speaker C: And that's another thing too.
That's another thing. That's another thing too. I will say this, and this is just from what I see, Saucy Santana isn't someone that we look at and we be like, oh, we're lusting over. And that's desirable in that same kind of manner. Right.
[00:56:47] Speaker A: So I got you. People ain't paying that much attention like that. Like. I know what you mean. Yes, I know. It's like having your, your Anjanu or your leading man or leading woman. Yeah, that is Idris Elba or whoever that leading. And we all want to see ourselves in that main character space and then realizing, baby, you're not even an option in some of these people's lineup. It can be a little bit painful. I know that. You know, that's why folks be having a little problem with Chris Brown too. Because, you know, I think that there was some, some kind of like colorism and things, you know. But look, it's so much, it's so much. So this is the thing, this is where I'm getting at. Because it's like, okay, well, why we even talk about this? Well, for me, my thing is this is our world and this is the stuff that's being presented out Here, let me. For public consumption. Yeah.
[00:57:38] Speaker C: I really want to get this in. So for me, I feel like that is needed because that's the real. That's the real world that we're seeing, and we face it. And it hasn't been on TV in that matter. And when it comes to all the other shows that have been canceled, this and other Chameleon is a friend who's on rap shit. So, like, I see it. I know about it. But were we really supportive of these said shows that have been canceled?
[00:58:04] Speaker A: I was watching and tweeting about it. I was.
[00:58:06] Speaker C: Yeah. But was most of us. Because if it's not some kind of ratchet reality that shows us in that kind of light, we're not really tuning in to that degree anyway. And then a lot of people who was outraged that it was canceled, a lot of y'all didn't tweet about it. Y'all didn't share it. Y'all weren't talking about it, y'all. It's fake outrage, right? So it's like all these shows, I feel like, can exist at one time. What I can say about the Jarrod show. And I just had to. Well, I don't watch it.
[00:58:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:58:34] Speaker C: I would see a trend when it would. When it would come on, I would see people talking about it, and it's probably because you have a big white audience who are looking at, you know, their meats. So whatever. Yeah. I'll just say that we have to support our shows if we want them to be. Be on. On television.
[00:58:52] Speaker A: Well, that, actually, I think, is a huge point to not speed past, because I think you are really correct with that. Even when it comes to so much of whether it's award shows and different things or whatever, we don't tend to celebrate until somebody white has put a stamp of approval on something that comes luxury. Laroche was just talking about that when it came to fashion and stuff like that. It's like, white is right. We're programmed that white is right. And not only that, but I think that, like, when you are black and born in the struggle. Born in a situation. Did I lose? Oh, there you go. When. When you were black and born in struggle, born in the situation. I'm sorry, but I feel that some folks are seeing whiteness as a way out, as a. A ticket into a different experience by osmosis, that they'll be brought into a different stratosphere. But you know what is so interesting about that? I had this white trans woman friend who I just thought she was just so amazing. She taught me so many things about like just living free. I mean she has some issues, but she just, you know, everybody's not perfect. And there's some really winning qualities about people sometimes. And so I remember one day we were in Los Angeles and she rented a, picked me up when I came to Los Angeles in a convertible.
She had a bottle of champagne and a blunt road ready for me.
We, and we were in the car, we're carrying on, blah, blah, blah, whatever. We weren't drinking in the car but like, you know, we, we had the blunt in the car. And so then we get, so we get back to the place, we have a good time. We, you know, we, I think for a couple days we have time. So then we go back to the situation and she's, we're driving to the airport now, okay. And I'm going to return the car for her after I drop her off. So she's driving and like speeding around like it's insane. Like we're having fun in this drop top convertible. So I drop her off and then as I'm driving I start to hit the thing, you know, tested a little bit or whatever. And I was like, oh, oh, oh. The white woman has left the car.
The privilege has left the building.
Sweetie, you can't do that. Sweetie, you can't do that by yourself.
[01:01:15] Speaker C: I talk about this all the time. That we just like we have it, it's like second nature. It like it's just subconsciously in our head how we navigate this world just by waking up and going throughout our day that so many things that non black people ever have to think about when we go in, like when we're driving, we can't, we don't have the privilege of sometimes going, you know, 5, 10 over the speed limit. Sometimes we get like, we gotta be extra careful when we go shop in the store. We can't look at an item for too long or look suspicious or maybe go to the dressing room trying on multiple items because they might say that we're stealing. When we go into job interviews, we have the code switch so we can get that job. It's like so many things that we have to do just, just in a day that some people don't ever have to think about at all. And it's like, look how exhausting that is for us.
[01:02:10] Speaker A: It's very exhausting and it takes energy and sometimes. That's why sometimes I know that whiteness does not know how mediocre it is sometimes. Yeah, even you're not even dealing with the layers, extra layers, everybody else dealing with.
[01:02:24] Speaker C: Even going inside a restaurant, it's like you might get a waiter to come to you and see you, you might not because they think that like weed on tip and all those. It's like, it's so many little things that we go, like there's so many little things that we go through. It's just like, gosh.
[01:02:42] Speaker A: And I feel like there are people, when they date white people feel like they're going to be able to opt out of that. Because let me tell you. Well, let me, let me tell you about the opt out. Let me tell you about the opt out because what I know is that the conversation around racism, anti blackness, patriarchy, misogyny, all the different things white straight men can opt out of all them conversations, they don't have to have that conversation. And so that when it comes to race, I had a, I had a white trans woman friend who for a while was the only white trans woman who was saying things and calling out other white queer and trans people on their anti blackness and whatever. And then when I tell you I stopped being friends with her when she told me that it was getting too hard and she was opting out.
[01:03:35] Speaker C: And that's, and that's so crazy too because for me, I, I think about like how certain women, white people are non black people don't want to have those conversations. Like those conversations are so uncomfortable or they don't make me feel right. I'm like, well, think about us who are actually going through it, my love, going through it day to day and you can't listen.
[01:03:55] Speaker A: I mean, I mean think about this. I don't want to see images of dead babies on my, my newsfeed timeline. My timeline. It is disturbing.
It is painful to watch, but guess what?
Not as painful as the actual people in the photo.
[01:04:25] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:04:27] Speaker A: So if the, the least we can do is open our eyes to it.
That's literally all my it. My, my only issue ever with anybody on every anything is when they opt out.
Because to me that you closing your eyes to the situation and gaslighting everybody else about what we're calling out because you don't see it.
[01:04:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:04:54] Speaker A: You close your eyes.
[01:04:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And my only thing to that is that I'll say this for me, when it comes to rights, whether it's, you know, when we think about, you know, reproductive rights, when we think about voting, when we think about, you know, racism, queer, all this stuff for me it's just like, just don't take away another person's right. That's it. That's it. And that's all you don't, you know, you don't believe in abortion. You don't like abortions, fine, don't get abortions. But don't take away another person's right. Right? For me, that's all it is. Even when in the gay marriage, you don't have to marry a gay person, you don't even have to believe in it. You don't have to respect it in your personal life, that's fine. But don't take away someone else's right.
[01:05:42] Speaker A: That's it, baby. That conversation with Jerome hit the mark, hit the nail on the head. It was powerful. It was hilarious and informative, and, you know, I'm hoping honestly to be able to hit that sort of mix, you know, not just always talking about serious things, you know, but also talking about things that matter, that mean something, you know, just have a mix of things. All right, so we're going to end today's episode, as we always do, with a little Buddhist breadcrumb. This week, I want to touch on the fusion of reality and wisdom.
Though we like to think that reality, truth and facts are indisputable, they're often open to interpretation.
Buddhism teaches us to view reality through the lens of wisdom. Wisdom is the capacity to assess reality unobstructed by prejudice or self interest.
It's about fusing the reality of circumstances with the wisdom of how best to respond. Want? Got it. Okay. Thank you so much for joining me this week. And as always, stay connected, stay open, and keep making every opportunity count. No opportunity wasted.
