Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Welcome back to now, no Opportunity Wasted. I'm your host, Angelica Ross, and this is the podcast where we try not to waste a single opportunity. We want to do better.
We want to be better to ourselves and to each other.
So Today is Monday, August 4th, and we. It is August 4th, right? Yes. And we are live streaming here on YouTube, but we are streaming out to substack Instagram. LinkedIn or it ain't on LinkedIn, but I mean it ain't on Instagram. I don't know. You know, something happened with the Instagram thing so I couldn't add it, but we're gonna try to get Instagram on there the next time. But you know, Instagram and Meta, they be shady to me anyway, so you girls can kick rocks for today. And today we're going to be on YouTube, Facebook and LinkedIn.
Why LinkedIn? Because I am always about my business.
Okay? But around here it is always Buddhism before business.
So let me start off with a word from Buddhism. Day by Day Wisdom for Modern Life by Daisaku Ikeda Quote In Buddhist terms, the great universe and the self, the great macrocosm and the microcosm are one.
Since the self and all phenomena are one, all things are interrelated, termed dependent origination. This teaching explains that all things weave a single hole in each in which individuals live in relation to each other. In other words, all beings and all phenomena exist or or occur because of their relationship with other beings and phenomena. And nothing in either the human or the non human world exists in isolation.
All things are mutually related to and independent with interdependent with all other things forming a great cosmo, maintaining the rhythms of life, end quote.
So I know you've heard the the cliche that none of us are free until all of us are free. Or maybe you understand that every has an effect, every cause has an effect. And when we take full responsibility for our own lives, we begin to recognize the ways our actions have contributed to the current environment and even the political climate.
And what we do with our lives can have a positive or negative effect on the environment and the people that we say that we love and are in community with.
As Nichiren Buddhists, we understand that the most effective way to change the world is by starting with yourself.
Instead of preaching to others about what is right or wrong, we instead want to focus on leading by example and becoming the change that we want to see in this world.
So we can all do this.
We can all change the things that we cannot and should not accept.
But we can't Keep thinking us versus them. We got to start taking a closer look at ourselves and stop abdicating our responsibility to these folks who continue to prove that they do not have our best interest at heart.
Amen.
Okay, T. TF Gamer says. T. Thank you so much. T. Yes.
So, yeah, so today I am, you know, going off script. We're, we're, you know, it's not necessarily going to be, you know, specific to any one thing. I definitely want to talk about the things that are on that are pressing to you, all that are on your minds. I want to also remind you that you can always text me 888-991-2946 and in that text message, you can send me an audio message. You can send me a video message if you're a little camera shy or don't want to be live. So if you have a question you want to send me, you can type it out. You can send me an audio message that I can share on the live, or you can send me a video or I can send you text me and I can send you the, the link so that you can hop on live with me and join the conversation live. Okay. So you can get that number again. The number is going across the bottom of your screens right now. 1888-99-12-946. And yeah, we can talk about those things also.
Today's episode is brought to you by my damn self, Ms. Ross, Inc. Missross.com if you visit missross.com you can find ways to connect with me so that we can change the world together.
Whether that is joining my winner circle community, whether that is signing up for my newsletter, trickling into my master class, Like a Butterfly, which we got brand new lessons coming out this month. I'll be recording brand new lessons. The master class is already done, but a girl's been getting her tush whooped in a way that it's so hard to put out all of these things and balance everything. It is super, super hard. I'm just being honest with you about all of that. That is why I haven't put some super price tag on it right now. That is why it is so accessible. So all you do is have to subscribe at any paid amount on YouTube and you'll also get access to to my Like a Butterfly master class. And this master class is how I have pretty much translated my life experience as a black trans woman who has crawled, crawled, sometimes a slow crawl, to find a place, a safe place where I could create my own cocoon and become the Beautiful black butterfly that you see sitting right in front of you.
And that translates into understanding that, you know, just like in Buddhism where we believe that life is cyclical, we have the cyclical nature of birth, aging, sickness and death. And then here we go, get back on it again. Birth, aging, sickness and death. Just like that is a cycle.
So is the experience for us as human beings of being able to choose to go back into our cocoons to those places that are, that we have to spin ourselves out of our own material. You know, we have to create, create this cocoon that is going to be uniquely nourishing to our well being, to the ways in which we develop, to the things that are going to make us.
One second. Stop barking. No, quiet.
But the things that are going to make us uniquely us. And so in my masterclass, I talk about how, and this is, this is what it is. And to be honest with you, I have been hesitant. To be honest, every single day has been so hard for me. Difficult. It's been extremely difficult. I'mma be honest, physically debilitating.
I am someone who, I guess through my internalized ableism, you know, mass multiple disabilities and some of them, you know, like right now I'm masking because I'm sitting down right now. But if I were to get up from this table and have to do some walking, you know, it might, I'd have to get warmed up a little bit. I don't know if it's my sciatica, I don't know what's going on. But every single day I am experiencing times where I'm immobile, when I can't respond and get up to things as fast as I used to be able to.
I don't think it's because I am approaching 45 years old. You know, I'm a girl is 44 years old and you know, things are starting to remind me of my age. But I am determined to, not to let these physical things stop me. I'm determined to not let these challenges, period, stop me.
And so I'm not going to be afraid. I'm not going to be embarrassed to be transparent with all who are willing to bear witness as I show you what it looks like even in the most gruesome times. You know, if you get a look inside the, the cocoon when a caterpillar is undergo transformation and all of our, our neurons and our, you know, all the stuff is firing and reconnecting, it's gushing, breaking apart and coming back together again. It's not probably the prettiest picture like you would see once you pop out the cocoon with the pretty, you know, butterfly wings and everything, right?
So I'm willing to show you.
I know people are going to talk about me. I know people are going to have things to say, and it's okay.
I'm okay with it.
Because I know that there is value in people seeing an unfiltered perspective, one that shows what it really takes to win in life, what winning really looks like. And sometimes winning, when you're sometimes winning is, you know, in the middle of the situation, the scoreboard dropped or the scoreboard ain't looking the way it should be. Because I know right now, ladies and gentlemen, my credit score is not doing what it's supposed to do.
It was. My credit score was something nasty. And it ain't what it should be right now because my former speaking agent still owes me $40,000 that I have not been able to pay towards the things of business that I do. So as a black trans woman missing out on $40,000, that has been a real struggle for me. I'm not going to lie. I also have people who I'm in community with sometimes who see me not as community, but it's competition. And because of that, you know, when it comes to bookings and when it comes to different things, there are people who are opening their mouths and fixing their mouths to speak against me.
It's what they're choosing to do, you understand? Saying, versus what I have chose to do with my platform and how I choose to amplify others people's voices instead of helping to silence them like the rest of the world has been doing.
The Zionist have been calling up opportunities and saying, shut that. Get rid of her.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
So I've had to recalibrate my community.
I've had to actually go back and strengthen those boundaries that I had when it comes to being in community with me.
I'm not going to let you continue to play in my face and, and call me community, because that's not community.
If we're not accountable to each other, if we can't be accountable to. To each other, then we're not community.
And that brings me to the conversation that went on about Laverne Cox and her, you know, MAGA boyfriend and the whole dating situation that went down on Olay.
Let me see.
Tarot is saying, you wear your life journey well, Auntie. I would never know you're in any pain ever. You're always so responsive, so empathetic, so Kind. You really are the girls of girls. Thank you. Thank you so much. Tara, listen, there's a reason that that is your experience, and that is what that is. And that is because I have been practicing nature and Buddhism for 15 years.
So with 15 years of practice, we go from a place of being so drowned and overwhelmed in our own suffering, in our own situations, that all we have room for is to focus on ourselves. And that's okay. Some you have to do that sometimes, you know, but there then become. Buddhism gives you this broad capacity. It opens. It breaks open your heart.
It's.
It expands your capacity to be able to have room for someone else, even when you yourself don't have that much.
Because what I know is that suffering is not a solitary experience. It is something that is collective. The whole world is suffering. We just each are getting a different feeling flavor of it.
So we can't sit here and. And act like we're the only ones going through something.
So that I refuse to do. I refuse to act like I'm the only one suffering. Sure, I've lost a lot of jobs. Sure I have.
I'm struggling in a lot of different ways, but so are a lot of other people.
And so I'm doing what I can to address my struggles and challenges while also still being available to help other people.
That is what I have vowed to do with the space that I am in.
So I want to share something because, you know, we're going to crack into this conversation because people ask me. People have been asking me about what was my whole, you know, response to this whole Laverne situation. And I want to kind of get into the fact that, you know, my name did come up. You know, I'm like, how did my name. How did. How did my name get into this? I know Dominique was like, well, where is Angelica Rossette? Minding my business. That's what I was doing. I was working in my studio, getting my things together and working on me.
Okay.
And, you know, there. There are many reasons why, you know, Olay did reach out to me. Olay reached out to me. And thank you, Olay, so much for reaching out to me and asked if I was available.
I told her I was not available for that conversation and that I would definitely look forward to joining in on future conversations.
And. And my main reason for doing that is because people know that.
That I.
I don't, you know, pull. I don't hold back, and I don't. And it's not malicious at all. Like, everything I'm saying and doing is just to call a thing a thing.
And so I didn't want to have such a blunt conversation in front of the world when I knew that there were things that I would probably need to dig a little bit deeper with her first with.
So after Laverne had her accountability panel, my sister and I had a accountability text message conversation back and forth with each other and at first. First commended her, you know, for even, you know, sitting there and allowing, you know, sitting there and listening to all of, you know, that feedback. You know, I know that it takes a strong.
It takes a strong girl, you know, to be able to do that.
And so definitely, Laverne, I commend you for doing that as well. But, you know, my thing was, is that, you know, with Laverne, she talks about the fact that she's been one of the girls who for the longest time was preaching intersectionality, you know what I mean? And was talking about capitalism and patriarchy and all of the things like, mama is smart, Mama is no dumb, Mama's no dummy.
So that's where I was kind of in the. When I was watching some of that. I was in the same lines as Hope where it's like, I don't think you get to play naive, sis. I don't think that that's a card you get to pull.
No, I don't. I just don't see that happening.
Sure, you may be having new experiences of love and, you know, maybe there's a naivete to the experience of feeling love. Maybe. But still there is just like we. Here's the situation with white people.
The reason why we say that all white people are basically racist because the situation is, is our society and everything grooms them that way until they become white people who are willing to interrogate their.
And not just on a one off thing and be like, I'm one of the good ones. Because we know it's a lot of white people who look for black people to be able to give them a stamp of approval, like they're on the HRC corporate equality index marker, where there's just a check mark saying you equal. But nobody's really digging down deep to see if that's really the situation.
So I'm not here to give any blanket sort of like approvals on. On those things. And I just sometimes.
Sometimes, you know, when I'm. I'm saying these things, I go off on a tangent and I get a little bit, you know, like.
But, you know, so.
So I. I kind of forgot what I was saying there. But thank you, Rick. Thank you for being here, Rick.
But you know, so you know, I don't think that she can pull the naive card.
So when she said things like, none of us are free until all of us are free. Sis, I believe you and I still believe that.
I still believe that.
I just think that the panel conversation with Laverne Cox on Olay and Friends wasn't about dragging Laverne. And I really appreciate Olay what she did there. I really appreciate what you did there and making space for a deeper reckoning with our contradictions, our privileges and what it truly means to truly be in community as black trans femmes who are navigating this industry and this world.
So let's be honest about this situation. We all have trauma, we all have defense mechanisms, but some of us have been forced to make peace with speaking the truth, even when it costs us everything.
And that's the kind of love that I'm always holding. That's the kind of friend that I strive to be.
And you know, I, I, I, I, I know that in the conversation folks were alluding to the fact that if you had, if Laverne has certain friends around her that would tell her, sis, sis, sis, you know, before she would do things like this, but the reality is she did.
And, and some of you may remember a viral clip that went viral of me and Laverne hanging out and coming out of the talking about gay men in hip hop and congratulating Lil Nas X for coming out.
Me and Laverne used to rock tough back in the days when her Janet Mock will be on Pierce Morgan. We, it's like we was tag teaming one after another. One would be on this station, other would be on this station, I'd be on that station. We all be hitting it from all sides like there.
So the situation is Quay and I'm going to bring this up and share this conversation because Quay brought my well first Dominique asked where was Angelica and Quay basically went to sort of set the record straight. So let's look at this really quick and see.
Oh, that's great. So I hold on one second, I'm going to add share screen and we are going to share this tab here and the audio. Yes.
All right, so I kind of queued it up already. All right, so we're going to hear where I guess my name comes into the story. And if you haven't seen this already, after this go ahead and go over to Olay and Friends, click subscribe and join. I love her, I love her conversations.
But let's Listen to this conversation real quick.
This is now. This is years back. I know you've been hopping on the pink meat for a long time, and nowhere on the BDS list are we supposed to avoid. Y' all probably can hear it. I just turned my TV down, so hopefully I saw that we were at Angelica's house in Woodland.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Angelica, where's she at having the conversation?
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Angelica wants no parts because she already said her piece, and I. I will deliver the message.
Laverne said.
And you were happy about it. Great. No echo. And you hear it. I'm dating this guy. I got the photos. And she showed us the photos of the man.
He is real buff, you know, he does. He does look good.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: I see why the.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: You know, I see why the. You know, why your pussy has to go unethical for a minute.
Angelica, in that moment, said, you are dating your oppressor, and she let all her shit be known. I'm a bitch that wants you to executive produce her short film Motherhood, where I play the first pregnant woman. Pregnant trans woman. But. So I kept my mouth shut, and I was like, do it. Love wins. But Angelica read you. And. And Angelica let it be known that she was not with it. And this was in 2022. This is before you came to it with the Internet and made the one woman show. Right. So, okay, so I'm pausing that for a second because, like, you know, so I guess like Hui was saying is that I text message Laverne first of all, and I was just like, you know, obviously, I commended her for doing that, but I also didn't quite remember that conversation, as, you know, Quay gave the recap of that conversation.
I don't exactly remember, you know, saying those exact words. Does it sound like something I would say?
Absolutely. You know, so I'm definitely not denying it that I. That that is what I said, because I. That definitely sou like something I would say.
But what I do know is that I've always considered Laverne to be a friend.
So to me, I've never. And I think Quaid, as somebody who was there, would probably attest to this as well as well, is that I wasn't attacking her. I wasn't.
I'm not someone who does things with a mean spirit or who.
I don't know. I'm just. I just am honest. And it wasn't even just about, you know, dating the oppressor. It was just like, again, I think that was like, the short form of what I would say.
I think that she knows is A little bit deeper than that. And there's a couple reasons why I say that. One of the reasons, you know, obviously they talked about desirability politics, you know, and, you know, so we have to talk about desirability politics.
We know that, like, in a trans community, when it comes to dating, sometimes that that pool can be small, you know, and sometimes we end up dating the same guys.
But me and Laverne, you know, I would laugh because I don't. Y' all know. I know y' all probably know Trace Lisette, the white trans girl. White trans girl.
Me and Trace Lisette are more likely to have a crossover and need to cross reference each other about who we used to date or who we're dating than me and Laverne would ever have crossover. And I know that because Laverne has always been attracted. Not always. As long as I have known her, she's been attracted to white men.
And I think that they also, you know, kind of called out the fact that when you are a leading lady on television and you're doing different things, you do have some say sometimes in being able to say, I'd like my love interest to be black.
And I think that people, or, you know, I think again, were right to call out the fact that when you have these opportunities, the more you gain privilege, the more you use that privilege to create opportunities for your community as well as yourself, to see yourself.
And, you know, so I. I feel like Laverne maybe have been used living, you know, her own, I think. And Laverne and I have had this convers. So let me actually even back it up a little bit. But the thing is, is that, you know, whether it was on cbs, on Doubt, when I played one of her girlfriends and she was at a law firm, her love interest was white there, or whether it was on clean slate, I was like, damn, another white love interest. You know what I mean? And I am someone who has been radically invested in black love because I know that black love heals. I know that black love has healed.
I know that by being radical and with my love for black men, I have been able to shift my experience with black men. And so I don't have the same experience as many other people do. There are plenty of black men who I have dated who want to date me, who want to date me publicly. Not all of them, but there are definitely several that will love to date me publicly. I may not have chosen them. I'm currently dating a black man right now, you know, an intelligent black man. And so, you know, and one who would gladly claim me and tried, you know what, would love to have claimed me years ago, you know, but, you know, just sometimes, you know, we, you know, things happen.
So the situation is, before I went on, I know Quay was a little trigger. Quay was a little trigger.
So bef. So let's dial back the. Dial back the hands of time for just a little bit. How many of you remember an interview between me and Laverne Cox on her then show? If we're being honest.
Okay, so if we're being honest, I'll tell you what really happened. So when it came to that interview, her people had reached out to me to interview me, and I said, sure.
But I realized, and I think also, yes, thank you so much, Raven McQueen Network for your contribution. We're going to show that on the screen. Thank you for that $20. Hey, sis. Just saying hello. You look beautiful. Thank you so much, Raven.
So as I was saying, though, so her team booked me to be on her show, and then Laverne called me or Laverne text me, she said, hey, I know we're going to be doing an interview tomorrow, and we haven't talked in a long time, so we should. Let's talk, you know. And so her and I had a conversation on the phone before we actually got to her show, and we had a very blunt, blunt conversation.
And she said, okay, you know, let's. Let's talk about these things, you know, on the show the next day. And so we did talk about a lot of those things. And I will tell you that some of those things I said because people who know me know that I'm not a girl.
You people who want to gossip and be all kind of backhanded, hide their hands about stuff and blah, blah, blah. Let me tell you about me.
Everything that I say publicly and privately can be checked.
And what I mean by checked can be verified or checked in the sense of accountability, because I'm not always right about everything.
But what I know is that we had. We had this conversation, and there was a lot of things that hit the. Hit the cutting room floor. And I know they hit that cutting room floor because it might not have made her look in the best light about the things that I was saying, but I was being honest, if we're being honest.
And so at that time, I told her that I have reached out to you several times to want to figure out how do we bring our star power together, how do we stop waiting for them to green light our stuff and we greenlight ourselves.
But over the years, as she said in the text message, I could never figure out the right opportunity is. Was kind of her response. You know what I'm saying? Meanwhile, I'm trying to connect with any and everybody to create something out of nothing, you know? But I told her then on her show that I felt like we were allowing. And when I said we, I more so meant her, that she was allowing this industry to shoot our stars into opposite ends of the galaxy so that we could not come together and use our star power together.
And so that you would have to be intentional about those things.
And going back to, you know, what I was saying about, you know, when, you know, just like with white folks and, you know, racism, blah, blah, you got to be willing to interrogate that ongoing. Interrogate your whiteness. So always be willing to interrogate it. Just like you have to be willing to interrogate your politics.
Interrogate your personal politics. Because as they said on the live, the personal is political.
So let's talk about desirability politics. Let's talk about dating across the lines of power, whiteness, state, violence, and fantasy.
Talk about holding those that we love accountable because we love them.
We can talk about what happens when the personal becomes political, and the political definitely gets personal, because it always was.
It was always personal.
So before we dive too deep into this conversation, I want to name something important that, like I said, I did not want to have that conversation first in front of the whole world, you know? And Laverne and I hadn't spoken in a while, so I wanted to kind of check in with her, you know, but she knows that if I'm gonna come to the table and have a conversation, it's gonna be real. And I. I don't need. I. We ain't gonna be censoring me, you know what I mean?
So, you know, I just.
I needed to share where I was coming from. Because for me, being a friend is not. Is.
It's not about being a yes man. You know what I'm saying? It's. It's. It's not about just agreeing with everything to keep the peace. You know what I'm saying? For me, being a real friend. Friend means not only loving you loudly, but being willing to hold up that mirror and gently say, okay, sis, I hear you, but this is what you said before.
This is what you claimed, and this is where it's not lining up.
I'm not trying to embarrass anybody. I'm not coming from a place of bitterness or judgment even.
But I'M a strong bitch, and I am. I want strong friends. Friends who can call me in when I'm wrong, when I'm out of pocket or just missing something.
That's the kind of friendship that I offer and expect in return.
I see some of these comments. I want to go in here and get to some of these comments.
Hold on one second.
Dr. Elijah Nicholas on LinkedIn says, hey, Angelica, do you think Laverne is being held to a higher slash, different standard because she's a celebrity? And what's wrong with her dating a MAGA supporter? I would not. Lol. But that's just my preference.
There's a lot wrong with dating a MAGA supporter because again, if we know that the personal is political and that's not a cliche, then we understand the ramification of those choices.
Let me put it like this. There's another video that I want to kind of share with you.
I.
Oh, I was on a.
Let me share.
Start it.
I was on a.
I was on Oprah Winfrey's network on a show called Black Women on the Conversation.
And you know, one of the topics that we hit on was.
Was basically interracial dating. And so I want to share this clip with you of me talking about. Because I also have dated people before out of my race, you know, dated white folks.
And sometimes, you know, we end up dating people who identify as conservative, you know, but so I want to.
How do I do this?
So I want to play a clip from this Black women on the Conversation.
So what I'm going to do is go back now over to this other situation and put a present or invite.
Stop screen. Share. Okay. And then present or invite, share screen.
Okay. Share screen. And here we go. So here is a clip of a conversation that I want you to kind of see where I sort of discuss what it means for me to date outside of my race. Here we go.
Racial dating. I agree that it's about the education because I actually was engaged to be married to a white man, to an Italian man, and we were together for eight years.
And I have not been in a relationship since.
I don't know if I would actually date outside my race. Again, there is only really one time that I'm against interracial dating, and that is when you're not allowed to bring your full self to the relationship. Because I was in the relationship where I did not challenge my white partner on his anti blackness and instead I internalized the way he looked at the black community too. And so we both were in our gated community house thinking this is what, you know, needs to happen, and blah, blah, blah. When I realized that this man was not invested in the liberation of my community, nor my black community, nor my LGBT community, but that I was passing.
So that means that I'm either gonna be with a black man who also has been educated about his anti blackness and about his misogyny and all those things, or I'm gonna be with someone who's not black, who understands that, or I'm gonna be by my damn self.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Now, April, I know I know you.
[00:37:01] Speaker C: You are happily married, but how do you think about interracial dating?
[00:37:05] Speaker A: I, I agree.
And again, you can continue. Obviously that video is available on YouTube to watch, but again, you can kind of see that basically I've been the same. I don't even know what year that was. Maybe that was 2019 or 2018.
So my politics have pretty much been the same ever since I've been 25 years old. You know, when I was 25 is, you know, when I started to unpack why I was attracted to this white man and engaged to this white man, even though he was not willing to love me, he wasn't willing to defend me, you know, to his family, to the world. You know, we, yes, we were in the beginning part of our relationship. I was stealth. So no one knew I was trans. We lived in a gated community in Boca Raton, Florida, you know, in a mostly Italian and Jewish community, you know, so no one knew that I was trans. But then we would meet gay, I would have gay friends. We have different folks. And I couldn't even tell them. And so I realized that I was living in this, I was living in his shadow.
There was no way that I could be the Angelica Ross living in his shadow. And one thing that I would, I shared with Laverne was that, listen, I'm gonna tell you straight up.
I, I, I unpacked what you are needing to unpack and what you are unpacking a while ago. And I'm telling you, it was embarrassing.
It was embarrassing for me. And I'm talking about truly, I felt bad about myself when I woke up because I wasn't aware of it. I thought I was just choosing the choices I was choosing because of whatever. But, you know, and, and you know, but when I decolonized my brain and understood the value that is placed on whiteness, the centering of whiteness in our society and the grooming and conditioning of, of us to want what whiteness wants and for us to want whiteness and the way they see things.
And so when I woke up from that and started like. And I gave back the ring, I broke off the engagement, and I said, I deserve in this.
Yeah, you're not abusive to me, but you will not fight for me and my rights.
Mainly because you're telling me, like, one of the things that Cat Black pointed out was that a lot of conservative men or men who date trans women like myself, will see you or see me as the exception. You're one of the good ones. You don't talk like that. You keep a job. You do this, you do that. So they're not in. They're like, why are. Why are you wanting to get into that? That's not your concern.
As a lecturer would say on Pose to Blanca, look at you, girl. Look at me. I can walk down Fifth Avenue with the sun high as my cheekbones and be treated as any other white woman, meaning, like, she was passing and she was doing those things. That wasn't her struggle.
And, you know, in the trans community, we don't all have the same struggles. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't still stay in solidarity with each other's struggles.
And what I think I witnessed was someone who talked that talk and walked that walk until they were presented with privilege and access.
And then, in order to keep that privilege and access, that person started saying less being, less radical.
And in internalizing all kind of things, Laverne spoke up on a podcast, high Key, about where she said she, you know, grew up in, you know, these white schools and what have you, and didn't know that she was being conditioned to please white people.
And I remember them also saying in that interview that Angelica ain't interested in that, and I am not interested in pleasing white people at all.
So, you know, there's just, like, this fundamental thing here that I think needs to be discussed. And I think the reason why people were upset is because Laverne was talking a certain talk that. That. That was leadership talk, talk that I feel like understands what it means to decolonize our minds and our bodies.
But once you find out that you're dating a MAGA cop, that thing that interrogates your politics and your personal things should have stopped it.
For many people, that's there thinking that should have stopped things right then and there. I understand, you know, things will be difficult. This, that, and the third. But to me, it doesn't. That doesn't stop when, you know, I'll just say this, like, again, I didn't want to show up to that panel because I was not interested in any kind of thing that looked like I was trying to drag Laverne. I believe her when she's, you know, I just believed her when she said that none of us are free until all of us are free. And then I feel like I watched her curate a life for herself and put people around her who were. Yes. People who would not challenge her like I challenged her, you know, and, and, and, and in that conversation, you know, with Laverne, she told me that, you know, that I made her feel like as if she wasn't woke enough or that, you know, and she did not always feel safe around me. And I apologized to her because that is. As a friend.
That's, that's not something I ever want and intend to be. The outcome is you feeling unsafe around me.
Unsafe.
You know, so I'm, I, I, I, I apologize for that because, again, I always try to be accountable to the ways in which I show up. So. But at the same time, I am unapologetic about my politics.
And I know that there are certain people, let's say outside of Laverne, like Laverne's ex maga cop boyfriend, who should feel unsafe around me. He should feel unsafe to say that he's a cop, knowing my politics. I, I want certain people to feel unsafe with those ideas. Don't even, don't even think about bringing that nonsense and ignorance here around me. You should feel unsafe with that.
But I don't want my friends to feel unsafe about talking about their experience, you know, so, again, I don't know the gap in that, because to me, I don't feel like there was this, like, enforcing nature about my will and opinion. It's just. Okay. Do you. But, girl, you talk about this and you're doing this.
I've been consistent on camera and off camera.
And for me, consistency in this industry will cost you in, in the way that I'm being. You know what I mean?
But that's not because I'm perfect. It's because I'm committed. I keep showing up.
So I want you to drop a green heart in the chat if you've ever lost something for standing up for what you believe in, a job, a friend, opportunity, whatever. And if you ever had to lovingly hold a mirror to someone that you care about, I want to hear about that too. Y' all know I got my, my number.
I'm gonna try to look up here and go to my, my, I'm gonna get my window up so I can send you the live studio link. So you can join me in the studio if you want to add to this conversation.
But I. I thought that Quay, you know, Quay, now, girl, you was a little messy. That was a little messy at times. But there were many times I understood that you were being the comedian in the room, just like, you know, T.S. madison does, you know, and. And is, you know, bringing light and lightness and, you know, comedy and humor into the situation, as only sometimes trans people can understand, you know. So I definitely appreciated some of that, some, I know, friction. So, you know, that was a little much. But, you know, I do think that Koi made some very interesting points that she would love for Laverne to executive produce her show. So her wanting, you know, to hopefully work with Laverne and, you know, prioritize whatever. She's not, listen, I'll say what you want. I'll open up for your show. I'll give you all kind of pr. Like, she was being funny about it. But what she was literally saying is, Angelica doesn't want anything from you but friendship. So she's not trying to angle anything with you. So that's why she's being direct. But if you want something else, she was like, girl, I'll give it to you. You understand what I'm saying? And you got to know, you know, know. Know your things, know who to go to for certain things. I'm not the girl to come to when you want me. You want to be disillusioned about what's going on. I'm the girl you go to for a clear reflection and just. Or you just want me to listen, I'll shut up. I'll just listen and keep my mouth, you know, my opinions and everything to myself. I sure will.
So, you know, so talking about desirability, politics, you know, and, you know, this might get a little cheeky, like I said, but listen, in the trans world, the pond is small.
Sometimes we have to cross reference, you know, I mean, like, way girl, I think he was just on my line, you know, but again, me and Laverne have never had that issue.
She's always had a clear preference for white men. And I think that that's what folks are trying to get out is if you understand about decolonization, then you understand that why we're attracted to. What we are attracted to is very heavily influenced by a lot politics, social norms, you know, all kind of other things.
And it's just. It's not about being. Having a dig on her. It's just about, you know, calling the thing, A thing, you know, when your preferences start to align with the systems of power, whiteness, patriarchy, law enforcement, and even state violence.
I mean, your, her type is a buff white copy.
You know, you're gonna have questions. We're gonna, you know, there's gonna be some questions. And I asked them questions because again, I love my friends. I love in accountability and truth.
You know what I'm saying? So what are people saying in the comments?
Nerd King is saying, I'm good for letting a friend cry on my shoulder the first night, the next night. Let's talk about your part in the situation.
That's where I'm at as well. That look, that's exactly TF Gamer says Quay was coming off as in B phobic low key. To be honest, I, Well, I. Listen, I, I validate your perspective. To me, I think that what was happening was the conversation that should have been having there should have just been between black trans women, period. I don't think in that first initial con conversation the way that the, the space that they were trying to create, I think should have just been an accountability panel with other trans women.
That is not to say that what DeSean offered to the conversation was not valid because I thought it was a lot of valid points that they had about desirability and politics and all of the different things. But, you know, so I think that that might have. I think that the container and context for the conversation was pushing back because there were some things that again, as black trans women, we may not agree with, you know, non binary people where you know about certain things. So I think that there sometimes need to be space for them to work that out and talk about that, you know, and then obviously the rest of the Internet and everybody else is doing videos and dissertations and all kind of things to break things down, but to create a space of reflection. I think that it should have been only black trans women holding up that mirror like Olay was doing. Olay, you know, kind of just stood back, moderated, you know, but made sure that most of the time was taken up by black trans women leading that conversation. And there were times I wanted to hear more from Hope. I wanted to hear from DeShawn at that time. And it's not because of whatever. It's because I wanted to hear what the black trans women had to say more so about the situation in this particular conversation.
Who else says, I know so many comments in here.
Oh yeah, Jerome is saying unsafe or does she want to be handled with care because of privilege?
Yeah, he said, that kind of sounds like a Karen response, you know, but, you know, so the. The thing is, is that I don't. I don't know, but what I do know is, is there were so many times different things were happening, and I just felt, you know, I told Laverne, and I have had some very, you know, deep conversations, you know, and, you know, I'm not going to go into all of the personal, you know, commentary, but that, you know, I just know that what I said to her, you know, I said things like, you know, okay, so this is what I said.
So I was. I said something like this, you know, I let her know that.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:51:22] Speaker A: I said, there is no split between what I believe and my public actions. And I have worked extremely hard to surround myself with folks who have the courage to hold me accountable to what I say I am and want to become. She goes, that's beautiful. I say, I want to be that. That. I wanted to be that for you, for Janet as well, but realized quickly we weren't really aligning on the same overall objectives.
Like Candy, I didn't have a choice.
My loudness walked in the door before I did so to speak.
She goes, you also have a deep spirituality. You also bring us like. And like Candy, I have felt discarded by community for saying the thing that finally folks are having the courage to say out loud.
It is Buddhism. It is the deepest Ocean. And after 15 years of practice and studying, and because of that, my experience with men and just in general has been diff. With a different focus.
She apologized, you know, that I felt discarded. She goes, after disclosure and how upset you were with me about the edit, that was extremely painful for me. Her and I had a separate conversation about disclosure. I had issues with that and issues with how that all went down, because even before it got filmed, I went to Laverne initially, when she came to me. Me. She got the idea when I was a keynote speaker at the Trans Summit at Outfest, and she met with Ryan, one of the guys who did, you know, like, the research around the media stuff with a disclosure. So they came together and decided to do this project. But again, just like they came together, how come I couldn't have been included in that as, you know, as someone who's leading in that space. So when she reached out to me, I said that I would participate if. If we could produce it together. I could come on as either co executive producer, or we could, you know, I'll produce. I'll just be a producer and produce with you. And she told me that they were not giving anybody producer credits, and that that's not something that they were looking to do. And so I was saying, okay, well, I. I understand.
I'll just bow out. Then I won't participate at all, you know? And, you know, after they filmed some stuff, after they did all the things, she came back to me and was like, that. They. They really needed my perspective to be added to it. And so she really asked me a favor. Do it. And so I. I basically asked for a favor in return. So we did that.
And I was just upset because after all that, I sit in there for the interview for disclosure, for hours or whatever, however long it was, people are standing around in the interview room, and some people are in tears at some of the things that I'm saying and holding on to my every word, right. Put all that stuff down. Then I go to see the edit. And once it was premiered, and I. I thought I was late, so I thought I might have missed myself in the thing on thing and realized I was only in there for the clip that they kept playing in the Netflix trailers, as if I was in it, advertising it, as if I was in it, but I was only in it for that thing that they played on Netflix, when in reality, I had given a whole hours of interviews. And what was worse is that we all were sitting down in our pretty outfits talking about the same thing, but Laverne and Jen Richards at the time had a costume change, so they had two separate tapings. And all of a sudden, both Laverne and Janet were saying things that I know I said on tape.
So I went to Laverne, and I was like, laverne, what is this about?
Cause I'm only in here for about this much, and I know I said some things that people were loving what I was saying, and some of those things I heard coming out of your mouth. And Jen Richards, mouse, once y' all did a costume change and came back on a different day to say some things. And I can only assume that was after y' all saw my interview, because you're literally saying some of the same things I'm saying. And if you had all the footage, then you would know that, and maybe you would put me saying that, but instead, you put yourself saying that on there.
And so I was just upset that she called me to the carpet and didn't even use me and kind of like, for me, played on my time.
And so there were just several things, you know, that I'm very direct about about the situation. So I was like, look, you played me like I am an executive producer. I produced a web series, King Esther, that got four Daytime Emmy nominations. One of those Daytime Emmy nominations was for Janet Hubert, the original Aunt Viv from Fresh Prince of Bel Air. The other nomination was for a black trans woman who at that time was an unknown actress, as well as for the writing and directing with Dewey Gerard. Four daytime Emmy nominations. It wasn't my first time at the rodeo executive producing things. Things.
So when I. I asked why was it that I spent all that time. And I know people were hanging on to my. You know, why was it that was only in there for that little bit? She told me that the producer said that. The white producer, mind you, that her co executive producer, whatever, that they said that I seemed guarded in the interview, and I said, laverne, repeat that back one more time.
Repeat that back one more time.
Angelica Ross seemed guarded in the interview.
I said, laverne, does that sound like me?
She was like, well, you know, I don't know. You know, so she. Because she knows.
She know good damn. Well, I wasn't no guarded in no interview. I gave them a lot.
So, you know, so there's just things like that where I feel like. And then even. Even there was. There was a time.
Wait, there. There was a time. I see something going in on there, so I'm definitely going to listen. Listen, text me. Listen, I see Brianna on here, too, y'. All. Listen, I'm gonna. I'm.
I want to send y' all the link to be able to get on here and get on this camera and talk with me. So I'm gonna bring up this window in case anybody has text me, because I haven't been logged into the situation. So I can copy and paste the.
The link in there for you.
Because I see y' all are going off in the chat, and I don't know what's happening, but I'm trying to get over there. So just give me a second because I'm trying to get over there and see what y' all talking about. Okay, so who.
We don't go over here. Okay, test for Ms. Ross. Okay, so yes, somebody just text me, test for Ms. Ross. Angelica, I hope.
[00:58:11] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: Okay, so I'm. Whoever. Just text me, test for Ms. Ross. I see your message, but you just said test. So I'm going to send you though the link in case. Or just let me know if you want the link, but text me. Hi, thanks for texting me. I live in New York City. Okay. That was somebody else all right, so I see these comments over there. I need to get over to these comments because y' all are going off. So let me see what the folks are saying over here.
Child. Wait, let me scroll back a little bit. It.
It's a lot going on. Wait, let me get to.
Oh, there's so many.
Okay, so the situation, like I was Saying about this, DeShawn, I see some people are backing that up a little bit, like Brianna is saying. I also felt like desean should not have been in that conversation. Like I said, for me, it was obvious this was about black trans women who date CIS men and the stories we have to tell.
That is why I said what I said. Nothing personal against them. That is exactly why I said it.
You know, nerd king was saying that, look, desean did have some issues landing the plane again. And sometimes what that means is then taking up space when other people could be landing the plane or having the conversation. Not to say that everybody was perfect at doing that.
Brianna also says, also desean has nerve to tell black trans women not to date men while they also physically can be read as a man on a panel with women. It wore me out.
Right? So that's where I say that, like, sometimes when we're in these same spaces, I'm just not sure all the time that some folks understand how to take up space without and still leave enough space for trans women to define for themselves certain things. And sometimes it sounded like academically they were trying to define what is the truth because they were coming from an academic place of their study. And we as trans people have kind of just had enough of that. That of people prioritizing their academics over our real life experiences. So I think that that was part of that.
Julio on LinkedIn says, Is it possible that we're doing our own version of desirability politics? I actually love that term. Are we fetishizing our white counterparts the same way we've been fetishized for so long?
Oo. Or is this just another case of two wrongs don't make a right? I'm in the idea of private panel to unpack the. This. Yeah. I mean, yes. So there was just a lot to unpack. And I kind of go hard to get at truth. I don't kind of let people get away with doing PR stuff. So I feel like on that kind of platform, that was very much, you know.
You know, but, like, I had, you know, more in depth conversation, you know what I'm saying? Like, with Laverne privately over text messages to get into some things.
Jerome says.
Oh, a Destroyer. Jerome says. DeSean absolutely had a right to be there. The conversation at its root was about dating one's oppressor, especially as a person who has leadership in this community. All LGBTQ members were valid. Now, I agree with your. The. The concept of what you're saying, Jerome, is that the conversation definitely had hints of dating your own oppressor. But I don't think that that was the root of the conversation. And that's, I think, what the issue is. I don't think that that's the root of the conversation. I think that that is a through line for sure, because everybody, LGBTQ people and straight people all end up, can end up in situations where they're dating the oppressor. I think what needed to be unpacked and what I was enjoying that was being unpacked about the conversation is the why and not. And the why is different for different people in different communities.
Especially for black trans women.
There is a why that we know about.
In situations where even women like myself have dated guys who have not been the type of men who would defend us in the public, who would vote for our best interest, or who might. Might flip out on us if some. The wrong person found out that we were together.
Now, I don't attract and date those type of folks. You understand what I'm saying? But like, we've all been subject to that, but there's a reason for that.
And the reason is more aligned with the experience that CIS women have in the sense that CIS men, and this is something that we are just now starting to really tap into and understand. What does it mean to actually be coerced into sex and into relationships?
And coercion involves deception. It evolves not telling someone that you're a Republican MAGA cop and what have you.
And now, mind you, I think that we all have this line that we can judge for ourselves about when to tell someone something that is important. But three years is a little bit too long down the line. Definitely too long. Like Cat was saying, we having some of them conversations up front.
So that, that, like, I definitely feel that there was very much some valid things that DeShawn was saying, but I think that the conversation that needed to be had was more of a sister conversation and, and even with even CIS women to understand how we are more alike than different when it comes to the challenges of dating. Dating CIS men, because there are so many black CIS women who have opened themselves up to dating outside their race because they, like Quay was saying, they are tired of waiting for their black king to show up. And it's not from a lack of trying.
It isn't.
And that's. And, and Brianna's saying, well, that's why Quaid torches showing up.
Wait, okay, y' all comments are going so fast that I can't gonna get in here. But let's see. So Jerome is saying to Brianna that Sanda Sean didn't need to be there as his conversation, that non binaries aren't trans. And we take. So again, it doesn't add to that conversation that non binary people aren't trans. What it does is highlight the nuance for what we call so. So when we would do racial justice trainings, we would break into like cohorts and affinity groups. Right?
So when it comes to certain conversations, in order to get more specific about that conversation, you can dive more down into a more specific experience between.
Because again, trans is an umbrella term. And, and everybody is not affected the same way under that umbrella, especially not desean is showing up and presenting as. That can be read as a black male and not as binary or non binary all the time. Like that's what some of these folks are saying. Like. So you have to, you, you have to understand as myself, as a trans woman who is in community with CIS women, there are times when we all should be at the table having a conversation. And there are times when I need to step back when they're talking about period menstruation and the lack of medical attention paid to black women's pain threshold when it comes to childbirth and dying in childbirth and all these different things. These are, these are all conversations that, yes, I'm a black woman, but I'm not a black CIS woman. That conversation specific to black CIS women. So there are conversations that can be specific to black trans women. It's okay. And there are times when we open up that conversation. I think that this conversation should have been between black trans women, me personally.
Let's see what else we got here going on.
I hear you. That's not fair. Non bearing. I hear you. What you're saying that that's not fair. Non binary has no. Look, one can't say they aren't showing up as non binary. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is, of course non binary doesn't have a look, but man does.
That's why they be calling folks mans.
You know what I'm saying? So you know, nobody. People won't know you're non binary if you are presenting As a man. Man. If that's the look that. That it. That it is. You know what I'm saying? Nobody knows until they ask your pronouns, until they ask certain things about non binary people. That's why we're trying to educate people to just ask the pronouns, because you never know just by looking at something. 1. But the reality is we have to start addressing things as they are meaning. CIS women may have a problem with trans women and may want to invalidate our experience as women, but that does not negate the fact that when I walk outside this door, I'm seen as a woman and I'm treated as such.
That's where. That's part of that conversation. So it's not about invalidating anybody's looks, how they show up or whatever. Whatever. It's about dealing with the reality of how we are perceived in this world, which affects my dating choices. It affects a lot of things.
Laverne Cox will talk about the fact that some of y' all are saying that she's passable. Me and Laverne have had very different conversations on that.
Laverne has been somewhat of a symbol of change for the industry because Laverne has said at times that she believes she reads trans, whether it's her height, whether it's certain things in person or what have you. And now because of her ultra of fame, when we walk into certain rooms, she's clocked as. She might be clocked right away as trans. And that's going to. People are going to respond to her differently than they respond to me walking through the room if they don't yet know that I'm trans. We. We. It's just what it is.
So that is the factor that I'm talking about. And those are the nuances alone that need to also be talked about. Because the reality is Laverne is also tapping on some things that. That, you know, even maybe black drag queens are tapping on when you are so obviously queer. Trans drag, this, that, and the third.
Sometimes your black counterparts aren't interested in that if they live in a certain space. You understand what I'm saying? But what I love that Quay was putting down is that that is not always the truth. There are plenty of black people that are willing to date Laverne, but that Laverne might not find attraction attractive because of desirability, politics, fat black people, neurospicy black people, disabled black people.
So what some people are trying to point out is that you are able to overlook a Republican status, a cop status, and a maga status before you are willing to overlook a black disabled, you know, disabled status or someone who might be fat or again again specifically speaking someone who doesn't fit into the mainstream desirability politics.
And that is where I have challenged myself.
Again, you're attracted to what you're attracted to. I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to and you can't force me to be attracted to something I'm not attracted to. But at the same time when I am invested in decolonizing whiteness and I understand that the ways in which we judge black bodies has a lens of white supremacy because they only see thin white women as female and don't even see black black CIS women as female half the time as as a womanhood that is valued to be valued and protected.
You know what I mean? Yes. You know what I'm saying? Tarar says hello fat and neuro in the house. Okay.
Jerome says at Dr. By definition they are regardless of if they want to identify as such. Correct. Like I'm not invalidating anybody's identity but it literally just co goes down to regardless of what CIS women want to say about trans women and dating CIS men, when we walk out the door, unless we are wearing a sign on our head or unless some of us are, you know, have different, you know, features or whatever that are more trans, you know, or what have you folks are not going to know and they're going to treat you as you're being perceived received.
I mean that's just, that's just, that's just it. So there, there again I'm not invalidating their abil.
[01:10:57] Speaker B: Their.
[01:10:58] Speaker A: The contributions and the things that they had to say. I just think that a lot of the friction happened in that conversation because it was a little ill organized I will say and not on or lay's part but just saying like as far as the curation of voices for that first conversation, I think that should have been all black trans women and non binary trans women. Do you understand what I'm saying?
But you know what else? Okay, so I know there's so many.
I'm trying to get to all these comments and Dr. Lulu on LinkedIn says we have to stop wanting people to fit in boxes that we create.
That too.
That too. And like Brianna is saying the emphasis is on red as.
Yeah, because again this is, this is again part of that conversation. This is why sometimes it. This is why trans women get very irritated with the conversation around pronouns and stuff from non binary folks. Sometimes is because sometimes we'll get into a Space of theoretical, of what things are technically, theoretically and not in the practical. I am someone who went through beauty school and I, I'm not a beauty school dropout. I graduated but I just never got my license. And in beauty school you have your theory and you have your practical and each one of them hits different. And that's all I'm trying to say is that sometimes we have to recognize that there is a difference in how things play out practically than theoretically.
And so what we have to not act like is like what Brianna is saying is that some non binary folks don't. We're not going to. What we are not going to do is act like some non binary folks don't read assist gay men or CIS lebby lesbians. So that's like, like that is a. That she's dead ass right on that. Like that's just a, a reality. And so it's not about us wanting to invalidate anybody's non binary identity. What we're saying is them out there, just like T.S. madison was saying, ain't no more this and that is just gays and punks or this. Whatever she was saying is because what she was saying is to them out there that are reading you to the white men, to the black men, to the magas, to everything body else you're. They just see if desean with the way they showed up on that panel they most people would see a man that's just like real.
I validate them as a non binary person, you understand? I'm saying they have a full beard and like is come on like Brianna, come on like that's all Brianna is saying. Like we in community are not invested in invalidating your identity. But we're talking about practical experiences, about real life experiences, about what happens when people choose to navigate these streets and have the audacity to look for love.
Sam said as am I a makeup artist because my face is always a one. No, it ain't always a one. You did catch me on a day when it was a one. But it is not always that.
So Dr. Elijah saying with Jerome, I agree. I know some non binary people who are offended and adamant about not being grouped with trans folks.
Right? I mean again, we don't want to group everybody together.
We do want to try to have specifics, but also want to create spaces where we all can have the conversation. But when there's limited time space, when we haven't had the conversation, we need to prioritize the voices that need to be heard and those voices that should have been prioritized in that conversation were people who identified with Laverne, like, as, like as black trans women. That's. That should have been the accountability roundtable. To me, Mel is saying, I'm glad you are covering this topic. Thank you so much. I'm going to check my time text.
Okay. Nobody. Okay, so nobody wants to get on. On camera he said we were in a queer space, period.
Yes and no. Like, the thing is, is that I don't, I don't know if Olay.
Olay's show is considered a queer space tech, you know, just, just from default. And secondly, you know, everybody that is trans doesn't identify as queer there. You know what I'm saying? So again, there are moments when I think we, it's okay to be specific because the more we allow moments where we can be specific and listen and are willing to listen to those specific experiences, the more we can reflect on the universal and have then time to come out and zoom out into the universal conversation. But I don't think we were there yet. Everybody was already out there on the Internet having such a, you know, widespread conversation. We needed to hear and prioritize for people who were directly affected. And what I mean by, you know, this is as black trans women, we don't have that many like these role mount people in certain things, people who we can look up to, who have gone in certain spaces, who can mentor, who can do certain things that we, who we see ourselves in and all that kind of stuff. So it's okay. It's okay. It's okay for us to have specific, nuanced conversations and it's okay for us to zoom out. It's okay for us to zoom in and it's okay for us to zoom out. Out. Both are fine.
Brianna saying, where's the link? Brianna, message me on. Either you. If you text message me, you can get the link, the text message, or if you can DM me on Instagram, I can send it. But it's better if you text message me to 1-888- let me put that banner back on the screen.
There we go. 1-888-9912-946.
You can definitely jump on there. If you want to hop on camera with me and add to the conversation, I would love that.
Dr. Elijah said, I respectfully disagree. Angelica. As a trans leader, any trans person could be a part of the conversation to hold, listen, listen, you do what you want to do on your platform. Okay? What I am saying is it's okay.
It is absolutely okay for trans Women, people who identify as trans women and people who identify as women and not as non binary or as non binary trans women. It's okay for them to group together and say we want to have a conversation.
And it's also okay to expand those walls and have the conversation with everybody else.
So what I am saying to you is, is what you are talking about and the conversation you're talking about having is perfectly okay having. I'm in no disagreement with you about that.
What I'm saying is, is that multiple things can happen.
So I'm, I think that yes, absolutely, that conversation could have been had that way with those folks. I think that first though, that particular conversation, in my opinion as a black trans woman woman should have been between the girls sound.
So let's see Brianna saying, Dr. Elijah, trans men do not have the same energy when it's a trans man issue. And you know that.
And that is the other thing too. What is so wild to me, you are so right, is that like we are sometimes really trying to push trans men in front of the, the space in the camera when it comes down to situation that are specifically about them. Like the just hilarious situation, just hilarious was attract attacking black trans women, talking about who's going to stand up for the real women and protect us. Y' all need to be in straight jackets thinking that y' all women, we bleed for real and all this kind of stuff. And there was a black trans woman who spoke up and said, CIS women do not own womanhood and CIS women are not the only ones who can handle have periods and blah, blah, blah, whatever. I remember this black trans woman standing up to say that because at the time it wasn't enough, I guess, or they weren't. I don't know what was going on, but I know I was trying to share Kaden, everybody else who would speak up about the situation, but there are so many black trans men who, you know, maybe won't even admit that. Just like any. Just like a CIS man. Just like a CIS man, their favorite topic is not talking about periods. I know a lot of trans men who don't want to really be in that conversation and having those things, but those are the times when we need y' all to step forward, forward. Not exactly in these times when there are are really centering around black trans women. Gather your folks. You know what I'm saying? And so the thing is, is like in that time with Laverne, Laverne, I remember getting on live and saying to saying basically kind of almost speaking up against the black trans woman for the harsh way that she spoke up and saying the things. And, and, and I'm like, I felt like Laverne was undermining the situation because the girl said what she said and what she said was right and crazy. Correct. It's just that what she was saying was on behalf of trans men and other non binary folks who have a uterus and don't identify as CIS women, that they can also to have periods and that trans women have the experience of womanhood. Whether you like it or not, we go out into the world and if we are presented and seen as women, then we are experiencing womanhood. That's just something that you can't argue with or deny.
Dr. Elijah said, I have no problem talking about periods. However, I don't have them. So am I really the best person to talk about it though? Yes, you are, because you're a trans man. Just like a woman who has gone through menopause or whatever they go through when they period stop, don't mean that the conversation is no longer, you know, something that they can come into as someone who has experienced that or someone who can. Can experience that. Just because you don't specifically, if you consider yourself to be a community leader, then you don't have to speak on behalf of your own personal experience. You can speak on behalf of your community's experience. So it is not about whether you experience those periods or not. It's about setting the record straight with people. It's about making sure that they are informed and understanding as trans men. There are many trans men who decide that they want to have babies and carry babies. So they do experience having periods. They do need to have access to abortion care. And these conversations need to be led and have trans men in there and not with us so that people can stop getting confused and thinking that we as black trans women want to take up space in these women conversations. Because I don't.
I don't have a dog in the fight.
Now we can talk about reproductive justice as a trans woman and get into the intersections of what that looks like for me as a woman who cannot have children.
And there are also CIS women who cannot have children. Children. And we can talk about that.
But if you're going to be a leader, it is not a. Is no longer about your personal experience. And I think that is why Laverne was being held accountable. Because I feel that as a someone we see as a leader, you know, and as Olay asked, where is that boundary of, you know, and responsibility of being a Leader and also living your own damn life and, and prioritizing your own needs and wants. Right.
So the reality is, as a leader, though, if you take on that banner, then you, I believe, are choosing to not speak just on your own behalf, but you are. You are wanting to speak on behalf of those who are affected by the issue at hand.
Jerome says oftentimes it seems like more some trans women think trans, non binary people are competing with them. And the reality is I never want to compete when there's nothing I strive to even be. Jerome, that's you. And I am very much understanding that you are not in a place of competition.
Whereas we have gone through some things and there has just been a different experience over decades. And so the reality is, is we are healing as a community. Community. Because there are times when non binary people saw trans people as the enemy and were very willing to say that from their academic standpoints. They felt because we were trans people who were gravitating towards the extremes of, of gender, that we were basically aligning with a system of a binary gender.
And again, there are layers to this in which ways and we as trans people can internalize things and reinforce things that we shouldn't be reinforcing.
This is such a deep, you know, conversation, but the reality is, is that privilege is still privilege.
And I think that this is something that folks do not want to talk about half the time. I need to get to Brianna and see if I can get her this link once again. Second, let me, let me go to here and copy the link first of all to get my guest on here. So present or invite? Let me go to invite a guest, copy the studio link and then I am going to text this link to you, Brianna. Hopefully there you are, there's Briana. I'm texting you this link, Brianna, so hopefully you're still there and you can join us on the conversation.
But yeah, but the thing is, is that what we have to stop like ignoring is privilege.
Privilege is perspectival, meaning it absolutely changes depending on the perspective, depending on the environment that you're in.
So what white people need to understand about white privilege is that you may not, you may feel like you don't have privilege amongst other white people because maybe you live in a trailer park and they are Park 5th Avenue or whatever the case is. But if you are a homeless white person and then go over on the street where the black homeless people are, there might be a little bit of a different treatment in, oh my God, why is a white person on the street versus, oh, every day a black and brown person on the street or what have you there. I say, I explained. So let me explain privileges way there are door. Privilege is like going to Walmart. Excuse me, I won't even say Walmart. Let me just say privilege is like going to a department store.
And. And it is like waving your hand in front of that sensor that automatically opens the doors for you to get in.
And we all know that as black people who go to them sensors sometimes underneath the faucet to wash our hands. Oh, the faucet not turning on. On.
It's not opening the door for me like it does for them.
So we have to understand that whiteness automatically opens some doors that don't open for other people. Just like passability, pretty privilege. I am draped in it.
And I. And I'm not going to lie to you or ignore the fact that there are doors that absolutely open for me that don't open for other people because I pass because A is pretty.
And if I were to ignore that fact, I would be doing everybody a disservice and I would be lying to everybody about what the real experience is.
So I want to bring Brianna on here now. Brianna Jenkins. And I. I need to put my. I definitely need to get this headphone in so I. I can hear what you were saying, Brianna. So that.
Give me two seconds. Where is my headphone extender? Like, why are y' all playing with me like this? Where's my. Oh, I think this is it. This is my headphone extender. I found it. Here's my headphone extender. I got it. Here we go.
So I can hear this conversation in my ear.
Go plug this into the Mac.
Okay? Yeah. All right.
Okay, baby, now we're gonna have some audio here. So let me just make sure that my audio MIDI setup is set up so that I can have the audio coming out of my external headphones. Yes, it is. Okay, great. So now I'm going to try to get Brianna on here. And Brianna, I should be able to hear you. You. I am going to unmute you and add you to the stage.
How come I can't unmute your mic? Can you unmute yourself? There we go.
[01:28:03] Speaker B: Can you hear me?
[01:28:04] Speaker A: I can absolutely hear you. Brianna. Yes. How are you? Looking gorgeous. Look at that skin.
[01:28:10] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm doing great. Call from Washington.
[01:28:15] Speaker A: From where you at?
[01:28:16] Speaker B: Washington, D.C. no, Seattle.
[01:28:18] Speaker A: Oh, Seattle, Washington.
[01:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:28:20] Speaker A: Are you.
[01:28:21] Speaker B: You're.
[01:28:21] Speaker A: You're traveling there? There's.
[01:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm here. I'm here for work. I'm not home in Texas right now, but.
[01:28:27] Speaker A: Oh, you're in Texas now?
[01:28:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I live in Houston. Oh, wow.
[01:28:31] Speaker A: Because you were in Baltimore, correct?
[01:28:32] Speaker B: Yeah, from Baltimore. Bounced around, but been in Houston the last three years. Yes.
[01:28:38] Speaker A: Well, you know, listen, I have definitely been following, you know, because obviously we. We know each other, and we follow each other for a very long time. We've been in the movement for a very long time. So I think for some folks. Folks, there is an understanding that a lot of this conversation ain't new to some of us. And so some of this stuff is not to be played as naive. Some of these things are not new, and that's why the girls are being a little bit more firm on some of the things. But what was your take on this? I know you've been wanting to hop in on this conversation.
[01:29:12] Speaker B: My.
My. My take on it. And I. I have. I have a couple of things. And you. I. And I should say I'm spe personal capacity as somebody that works for a community org. Love my organization. But speaking as Brianna, the binary black trans woman who looks a little queer but is still pretty much on the binary side of things, and that ain't changing. Okay.
When it comes to Laverne Cox, I felt like that's something that should have been saved for the. For the group chat. I don't feel like everybody needed to hear that.
I think.
I'm glad that. I'm glad that she was being held accountable because she engaged in a practice that did not align with the values that she espoused. That's one that she. She was wrong.
We can hold her accountable. We can say the quiet part out loud. That's fine.
My issue with this whole thing is the.
Is the level and the intensity at P. In which people are. They feel licensed to come at her and that they feel licensed to discard her.
That we don't talk about is the specific trans massage noir that black binary trans women experience in this movement, where if we make any missteps that anybody else makes, it's like everything that you have done, it has been erased.
You are the devil. We have.
[01:30:58] Speaker A: Well, you remember when Laverne had made that misstep on the red carpet with Will and Jada Smith and was kind of, like, talking about that all, and people were, like, dragging her for filth.
Went. And when Again. Again, should she have done that? I definitely would not have done that in that moment, but people do that. That's that industry. People do that stuff all the time, and people are prepared for it, they laughed it off or whatever might have happened. But people took that opportunity to. To get out what they had been holding in.
[01:31:29] Speaker B: Not just get out, but like go all the way in and not offer any type of. Not even grace, but understanding why somebody would be in that situation. And that's just something that's just not specific to celebrity. Laverne Cox, you come from the non profit industrial world. I come from that. I'm in that now. We know that there is no grace for us as binary black trans woman. Everything we do is scrutinized and it takes only one little misstep and it'll just take you out of the game with no retribution, no anything. Not condoning what Laverne did, not offering her a Grace. She's a 53 year old woman.
But I felt like there were so many more conversations that could have been had. There were so many openings or portals to get into the humanity and the lived experience, particularly a binary black trans woman. That's why it needs to be specific.
Okay. To DeShawn. And I kind of felt like DeShaun's presence on that panel was kind of to all lives matter, everything and all lives do matter. But we're talking about specifically binary black trans. Because what Dominique said on that panel is true. If this is happening for Laverne Cox, who is the things of the things, what does that mean for the regular girl? I can relate to that, being a successful black trans woman attorney that you think people assume. People assume that because you have access to these things that all parts of your life will be equal. That's not necessarily true, but because you can be accomplished, you can have access to money, you could be the girls, you can have the bodies. But you having that, you being trans, that is the thing that will knock you down a peg. It doesn't matter how much you stack up in other areas that anti transness. And really the thing that annoyed me about the conversation, and it's not just that conversation, it's been in different discourse that I've had, I've had with different people, particularly around CIS people who I feel are being disingenuous. Like you can't.
I mean you should be able to find somebody that wants to be with you or somebody that wants to like you or somebody. But nobody, nobody's being real about, particularly like be honest, who is willing not only to. Who's not. Who's willing not just to have sex with black trans women. All of us can have sex with the. We've been doing it for years. I can do it.
[01:34:14] Speaker A: That's the easiest. That's one. On one day of the year.
[01:34:17] Speaker B: I could maybe go on a date now, because now some of the guys they've elevated to. To having dates. We're talking about who is partnering with us, who is building a life with us, who is seeing us as adding to their social capital. That's the part of the conversation that I feel like people are being dis.
[01:34:39] Speaker A: Well, and I think you actually said, you, You. You did said a key word there, social capital. And what folks don't understand is in a world where it's not conservatives who are anti trans, when trans people have been thrown under the bus constantly, this is. We have to understand the correlation to. To the fact of how we have that experience.
I want to bring on also to add to this conversation, Jerome, because I know y' all were kind of like all coming in onto the thing. So, Jerome, I. Hopefully you hear and understand what I'm talking about in the sense of, like, as a community.
When we have so many intersections as a community, community, don't you think that it's okay for us to have containers where each of the identities can break off into cohorts and discuss things that are unique to them and then come zoom out into, you know, different groups that include more people?
[01:35:31] Speaker C: What? Can you hear me?
[01:35:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I can hear you.
[01:35:33] Speaker C: Oh, hi, everybody. Yeah, I never said that wasn't okay. I said I agree with that. Like, yes, trans, black, trans women can have this conversation, especially exclusively. Only thing that I was saying was that a lot of people were saying that non binary people couldn't have the conversation or that their perspectives weren't valid. And that's why I was saying no. Even. Even in the case with DeShawn, whether people wanted him there or not, or one of them there or not, they're.
[01:35:59] Speaker A: What?
[01:36:00] Speaker B: Did you. You said him?
[01:36:01] Speaker C: Yes, because that's. Okay. Okay, Okay.
[01:36:03] Speaker A: I just.
[01:36:04] Speaker B: I just want to hear.
[01:36:07] Speaker C: If you want to go there, we can absolutely go there. I said him only because that was my first time being introduced to them.
So that's new. But what I'm saying, which is what I said in the comments, what she's.
[01:36:19] Speaker A: Trying to point out to you, though, is that.
[01:36:22] Speaker B: He instead of them. I just want to point that out.
[01:36:25] Speaker C: And very well. What I stated in the comments was that we were in a queer space or LGBT space, because that's what it was. We were talking about someone who's in the community. Most of the panel was everyone in the community.
[01:36:37] Speaker A: Community.
[01:36:37] Speaker C: Then it's okay. To not assume it's okay to just ask.
That's what I said and that's, yeah, true.
[01:36:43] Speaker A: But, but even with, like, with, with that you say it was like a queer space or what have you. But what I know is that like Olay reached out to me as well to be on the panel and what she told me was that it was going to be a panel of trans women, you know, having an accountability conversation with Laverne. I, I got to look on my message again and see if she mentioned like non binary or what have you. But I just know, know that to, because I have to, I have to make this very clear. I identify as a non binary trans woman and that is because I'm not interested in always doing this for everybody.
I'm not interested in, in basically playing. I, I love it, I love doing this kind of, I do love doing it, but it's not my priority when there are other pressing things. So a lot of times I might be red head as trans or non binary and other things. And what I've learned to do is actually not care because I know that I know who I am. I know. And I, so I don't actually, even with having an M marker on my passport, I don't give a damn because I know who I am. I know that these binaries or non do not ever get close to truly defining who I really am.
Yeah, but, but the reality is, is that as a non binary trans woman woman, I still understand my experience with Laverne, with all the other folks, that even though I identify as non binary, I am read as a binary trans woman a lot of times, and that's perfectly fine.
[01:38:19] Speaker C: So when people say like non binary people should be part of this conversation. Well, then Angelica was contacted. Her name was like your name was brought up in a conversation.
You're a non binary person. Which adds to my point that.
[01:38:34] Speaker A: But I'm a non binary trans woman.
[01:38:36] Speaker C: Yes, and I'm a non binary trans person.
[01:38:39] Speaker A: So like, but I'm saying I'm a non binary trans woman and I'm saying.
[01:38:43] Speaker C: Like, so non binary people's perspectives when it comes to this matter are very valid. A lot of times when they are leaders in this community and date the oppressor, like it was a very valid conversation.
[01:38:57] Speaker A: No, listen, I, I think what we're missing here is that I'm not saying at all, I don't think, I don't, A lot of people are saying, I, I, I think you're saying, and I, I will give credit to the fact that maybe some people are saying that non binary people don't have a, shouldn't be in this conversation at all.
What I, right, exactly what I'm saying is to refute.
[01:39:19] Speaker B: I don't disagree with that either but I think this conversation and granted I, I with what DeShawn brought to the.
[01:39:26] Speaker A: Table about do too. I do too actually.
[01:39:29] Speaker B: But for this conversation it should, for me it should have been a black trans woman and femmes and I, I from what I've experienced, there was enough diversity with black trans women that I've talked to that there could, there could have been a difference of opinions or a difference of tensions. This is, this is.
[01:39:48] Speaker A: And there still was, there was a lot of different opinions, intentions there.
[01:39:51] Speaker B: This is, this was my particular issue. You regarding that I do kind of feel like on a subconscious level it was shade on Olay's part but I'm going to key about it, I'm not going to take it serious but it's just like damn. Do you see trans woman as men with beards? That's why you had, that's how you see tr.
[01:40:12] Speaker A: No, well I, I think that she was more so just trying to be over inclusive.
[01:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm, I'm willing to key on it. You know, it's not that big a deal. My problem particularly with, my problem particularly with the DeShawn that I took was particularly with their when they had the awareness that like men like are problematic, men are dangerous and that black trans woman should be dating them, should not be dating them at all. On a theoretical level, on a feminist level, I get that, I fully get that. But all black trans women, all of us are not queer. Some of us identify as straight. Some of us are attracted to men. Like I wrestle with being attracted to like I'm naturally ori. I wish I could be into CIS woman or other trans woman or whatever, but that's just not my natural inclination.
[01:41:09] Speaker A: So I'm, but I think that what they were pointing out and I think what DeShawn was pointing out as well, well, is the same ways in which you are not attracted to, you know, CIS women and blah, blah, blah, is that part of who we desire and what we desire is politically shaped.
[01:41:30] Speaker B: No, no, no, no, I, no, I, I totally get that. My thing is what are we going to do in the meantime? Because everybody, I'm, I'm approaching it from like a harm reduction lens because everybody, everybody, if everybody was able to just stop interacting with CIS men or dating and granted whether the man is a maga or not for women, especially black women, partnering or being with men, period, is dangerous for women. When we think about intimate partner violence for CIS woman and trans women, absolutely. What? So for me, just saying don't do it when we know people are going to, that's just like telling people with HIV telling them not to have sex.
[01:42:15] Speaker A: Well, it's also just like telling black women to not date black men because of the statistics. Right?
[01:42:21] Speaker B: So what, so what is the. I get the theory, but what is.
[01:42:25] Speaker A: The, the real life practical we're talking about? The practical versus the theory?
[01:42:29] Speaker B: Yes, the, the negotiation skills that I'm going to need. The, the, the building myself up, because I'm not gonna lie, I'm still going to have sex with men. I'm still going to pursue men. Men. And, and like Cat said, everybody's. They're not going to reveal who they are. So what skills can I get so that I can have better discernment for when I meet these men? Okay. These are the things that I'm working out for. Where are the support groups or us as sisters to be pouring into each other as women so we can get the strength to. If you want to. If you want to. Because having these hard.
Don't do it or do it. I think that that is just as dangerous as just turning a blind eye. And again, this, this is why we needed the conversation to be specific. Because who was speaking to these black trans women that are still going to go out and pursue these men? And there's really no safety nets or support for us because if we say that we're, that we're mentally men and we're, we're entertaining men and we're not. Well, you're not dating this trans person and you're being shamed for it. Then how are people, how are people supposed to feel comfortable and open enough to share that this is who I am. This is where I land.
I'm still going to do this. But how can I do this safer? How can I do?
[01:43:56] Speaker A: So, so let me, let me, let me interject and say one of the pieces that I thought was missing in that conversation is a piece of what you're saying to back on what you're saying here. Here's what I know to be true for me as a someone who centers himself in a spiritual experience.
Is that what you, what you believe can become the things you believe can become your reality, what you think you know, it's like those cliches of what you think so is. Or if you think it's not possible, it's not possible. If you think it is possible, it is possible.
And so what I know is that I actually had to fight myself to.
Because I kept telling myself, just organically, it's not possible for a black man to love a trans woman in this environment. It's. Look at what it. From my experience, one after another, from the whole strip of them trying to haggle me for my prices to being, you know, out there in the actual dating world, the statistics were telling me, not just my own statistics, but my sister's statistics and the ones that have been handed down for decades. The not a lot of us were ending up partnered and all of these different things. But what I think people need to understand is that with almost all of life, the change has to start with you.
And I think that there were some things there in Laverne's belief system that were playing out in what she was, what was available to her, what kind of love, all these different things. And because we know Laverne has admitted to the. The fact of being in schools with white students in college, you know, whatever, and had grew up in condition to please white people, we see how Laverne has moved even in her career, in different ways. So there are things that really add up to the world that you create and what you believe is what you're going to experience. So for me, I almost lied to myself for years of saying, it is possible, black love is possible, blah, blah, blah, until all of a sudden, boom, it was. Was. And there were plenty of black men who weren't always men who were wanting to screw me and date me and all the things. But I have black men like Bruce Franks Jr. Who is a former, you know, State house representative from St. Louis. I have, you know, FRANK Joseph AUTHOR there is there consciously, there is. There's so many black men that I know I have a personal relationship with who actually will fight for my right to exist. So what I did was first change the radical idea of love, period. Because I knew, period, in black community, whether it was my brother, my father, or the in the hood, I wasn't feeling the love.
But that was what I believed about my environment. And I chose to believe in a radical vision of black love. And when it comes to Laverne and someone who's an actor and someone who creates narratives and images and stories, I see. Think that I and many other trans people want her to participate in creating. Helping us create that vision of black love, black trans love, because it doesn't just include. It's not just about seeing two black trans people together. It is about us loving ourselves and seeing ourselves as viable and seeing each other as viable. But we won't if we're constantly seeing the fantasy and the ideal as way outside of what we identify. Identify as.
[01:47:41] Speaker C: And that's very good. And I think that Deshawn kind of spoke to that when they mentioned about, about desirability. Right. Because oftentimes, in my experience, when I look at my trans sisters, they want the trade. They want the DL boy that only, you know, dates, like the CIS women, they allow him to come over at, you know, late night. They don't be in public, you know, in the daytime. And so, so it's like what, I also feel like what you think you deserve, you get. Right? And I feel like, would you entertain. You will consistently, you will consistently get. And I've seen my trans sisters who would go on dates with certain guys who may be a little bit flamboyant or a little bit feminine, or may not identify as, you know, as a CIS male and stuff like that. And they'll turn those things down.
Good man, good job, good deed. And they'll turn those things down because they want this fantasy. And a lot of times.
[01:48:45] Speaker A: But it's not even, it's not even just wanting the fantasy. Let me, let me break something down too, because it's not even just one in the fantasy. I, I, Because I hear you. Here's a, here's the situation.
Me and Trace Lisette, we would talk all the time about the fact that, like, as trans women are experiencing, was that we were just passing so much that the men who wanted to date us, wanted, would treat us like any other CIS woman and be respectful up until the moment that we, that we disclose that we were trans.
Then all of a sudden it shifted our experience of how they treated us and, and how things were going. So, and I forgot why I just mentioned that I was responding to something you were saying. There's a reason why I was mentioning that I'm so, I don't know, finished.
[01:49:34] Speaker C: I was just talking about the people in my experience who want these certain kind of guys. They want the, the, the kind of, the street kind of, they want those kind of guys in.
That's in line. When I think about the women in my circle too, that's in line with kind of the men that they kind of want to. Because they'll say like the, the guy that's professional, the guy that's corporate, the guy that's respected, respectful. He's born. So it's to me I look at that as a parallel.
[01:50:01] Speaker B: Go ahead.
[01:50:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I get it that it's. I get what you're saying, because I do know. Here's the thing. I think that there's a spectrum of transness, right? Period. But there's also a spectrum across age and experience. And there's something we call baby trans.
And when you are baby trans and a trans person, that's just new to the things or what have you, you are learning yourself. And one of the first things you learn is, oh, I can attract a man. And you think you do doing something, but until you find out that a man will screw a hole in the floor, so. So it will screw a sock. So like, until you find out that that's easy thing, but going along the way, I think that it's.
I found out that so many trans people, I didn't really understand, you know, I think a lot of trans people, not all, but a lot of trans people are neurospicy. You know, I. I'm a little neuro. Spicy. We all, you know, hit a little bit, little bit, whatever. And I've met sometimes other men who, because of my own internalized ableism, just different things or what have you, I did not see as attractive because of. Not just like, he's boring, it might be because of a nerdy something that is not necessarily, again, a part of what we see as those desirability, politics and what have you, you know, and so whether it is someone that is disabled or whether someone is fat or whether someone is neurospicy or all these different things, you can't force attraction. But for myself, I had to really work on what was important to me and put myself on a shelf until those things presented themselves and to know that my life was full of love and all those different things. Things. But it sometimes gets lonely. And I, and, and I have to say, as a black trans woman, you know, not only does it get lonely after a while, are you trying to sit on your pedestal and have your morals?
You want to break glass in case of emergency and get that, you know, get that out the box, but the situation is, is that me personally, I have srs. I had the surgery and I'm trying to tell you right now, now, I did not go get a vagina for a man.
Let me repeat myself there. All doing, all of this has not been for a man.
It's not about a man. What I needed badly was to have some kind of defense against these men in the sense that these men sniffed the testosterone out of me. Sometimes they called to it, sometimes they waited it out. She'll call me a bit eventually because they know that it's the dick get hard when the wind blows or when certain things happen, if you have certain things going through you. And sir, sometimes I was making decisions that were going against what I really wanted, because I really wanted that.
So when I had my surgery, I felt for me it was going to be like a process of becoming a eunuch. And like they say in the Bible of someone who is choosing their spiritual existence over prioritizing a sexual one. So I knew to my. Myself if I had the surgery, and all of a sudden I could never have an orgasm again or feel anything. For me, I was going to be totally fine. But I did go to the Ferrari of doctors, and he gave me something to feel. You understand what I'm saying? So she pl. She gives me the best orgasms of my life that I can give to myself.
So I'm just saying all that to say these. I don't want to be. I. I want to be able to make choices. And sometimes it's really hard when your biology, when just everything, just your humanness of wanting attraction and love and companionship is telling you, you know what?
The man that wants to treat me right and take me out and do all these things is not here right now, but this dude is willing to show up.
[01:54:04] Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm not saying force. I'm gonna let you go around. I'm not. I just want to clear this up. I'm not saying reinforce attraction. I'm saying do the work to understand why you attract what you attract or why you're attracted to what you're trying to suit. But I'm also saying that we. We can say that, but then a lot of times us and I never had a relationship. So let's put that out there. But we'll say that a lot of times we'll. We'll force the toxicity, like in a relationship. And how to. We'll. We'll do all that navigating, bending over backwards, all that stuff. But, like going out with a date, that's one that you're not like, like, physically attracted to, but, like, sometimes you get to know a person. You're like, okay, I am attracted. So I'm like. I'm saying that side of it, not forcing.
[01:54:45] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And. And I agree because I have gone out on dates with people who, you know, maybe I wasn't at first, right away. Like, you know, there was my umph. You Know what I'm saying? But like their personality really, you know, brought me in a little bit more. But there was like, cuz there's a, there's a fat black dude who was trying to date me and you know, flew himself out to come see me, you know, you know, and I, and you know, during that exchange, you know, nothing happened. I did, there was no physical, nothing, you know, nothing because I wasn't feeling it. And he was like, well why did you even, why would you even like try to talk to me? And blah blah, blah. I said because I was trying to get to know you. And so what I'm trying to say is that the physical is not the only thing for me. But if you can't come to me with the intellectual, okay, then you ain't got financial either, baby. You got to have one key. You got to have at least one of the keys for me to be on board.
[01:55:39] Speaker C: And that's why when I found out he was white and a MAGA and a Trump supporter in a bullying office, I was like, well, damn bitch, that's.
[01:55:45] Speaker A: A lot to look over. Yeah, he had everything else.
[01:55:51] Speaker B: So first I want to start here. I, I, I know it sounds like I'm, I'm sympathizing with the, the mega supporter. I am somebody in my own personal life, I have had to go on that journey. I have deprioritized marriage, I have, I, I've done the only because, But I, I have accepted the reality that what I'm looking for, that it may not exist. But all of the things that I'm looking for in a partner, I, I have in myself. And now I approach interactions with men in a very different way. It doesn't mean that I don't believe in love, but I like to approach things from a more realistic vantage point because that social capital thing is real. And I, I know, I know girls who date the quote, unquote respectable guys. And I've been in situations where you meet somebody and you're aligned with them in every way, but then you get to that point of whether it's going to be serious and it's always an excuse and it, it just is what it is. You can't run away from that.
I, as somebody who is non operative, who doesn't have srs and, and doesn't want srs, I'm somebody that is, I have learned how to be, be comfortable in my sexuality.
So when I get the moment, I lean and if I want to call somebody that's problematic, I lean into that because that's me enjoying my trans queer body, how it shows up. But I also know that there are places for certain men.
Certain men is just going to be a cut up and it is. And you can't make it. I've, I've, I've lived long enough and I've been blessed to have enough experiences and to be kind of savvy in that area where I know how to play placement. But the men who are really intrigued by you and who or who really want to date you or who, who are really about something, they will be able to do both and they will be able to be intentional and pursue you. And it's taken me a lot of years to learn that lesson.
[01:58:05] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:58:05] Speaker B: And it's going to be a lot of years to get there.
But I'm here now, so I'm not.
I don't think that love doesn't exist because I believe that if I love myself, then the love has to to exist. But I'm just realistic about the prospects that are out there. And I'm, I'm also very real about how anti trans the world is. Just how I'm real, how anti black the world is, anti pet. Like I, I just so I, I'm always trying to find the balance between those so I, so I can keep my sanity and so that I can love on myself the best way that I can. And I had, I had another, I had another point that I, I wanted to make.
Damn it. Damn it. I lost it.
[01:58:54] Speaker A: We.
[01:58:56] Speaker B: A lot of people made assumptions about Laverne and I don't know Laverne personally, but people list like she's wealthy. She has all of these things.
But she met this man on Tinder last time. Wealthy people that I know are not using at.
[01:59:14] Speaker A: They don't need it. Right.
[01:59:16] Speaker B: To every. So that wealthy people do do it.
[01:59:18] Speaker A: Just to play and feel control over, you know. You know.
[01:59:22] Speaker B: Right. But that, that signaled to me that even though she's wealthy or she's rich, that she doesn't have access to the circles where, how with CIS people you can just date in a social circle or somebody can refer somebody to you and you just ride off into the sunset. We don't have that as trans people.
[01:59:43] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:59:43] Speaker B: So it let it, it signaled to me that she, like I are shut out from those circles and we're just.
[01:59:51] Speaker A: Like, I believe that. I believe. I believe that. I believe that. So I believe that there should be some grace for Laverne. I really do believe there should be grace for her and for any black trans woman out here. Because the reality is, baby, if you find love, hold on to it.
But the only thing is, is that you have to understand what, what love is and not. Not start to dilute yourself because something feels good or for the moment or what have you and be willing to ask the, the hard questions and have those conversations up front.
[02:00:28] Speaker B: And also, we have to be a lot of us as trans people, if you get to make it to your 30s or make it to your 40s, we're late to the game. Not, not having sex because sex is always available to us, but having a dating life, getting those skills and stuff.
Having, having that dating life. So when do we, and I'm being specific because we're talking about black, A black trans woman. We're talking about black trans women. When do black trans women get to have the messy 20 year old phase?
Like when, when do we get, when do we get, when do we get to have that to, to, to make those mistakes?
[02:01:12] Speaker A: Well, I think we have seen that.
I will not call out any specifics, but I think we have seen some messiness from trans women in positions of power and their dating lives be. Splash all across, you know, all of the things. But, you know, Dr. Elijah says, but if there's a connection, is age relevant? And I have to say absolutely age is relevant. And the reason why I say that is this, number one, there was someone on here who said the age difference was borderline predatory.
I assumed that was a white person, number one. I just, with the way that that was coming in. And the reason why I say that is because 26, this man is a grown man. And he is, he's grown, number one. And he's a white white man, so police officer. And he's a police officer at that. So when she said something about him feeling unsafe, I just, that kind of went. I was like, huh? Because I'm just like, who? No, so the thing is, is that when it comes to age and cons and like, and that's what Brianna's saying in this power dynamic, really, even Laverne, like, Laverne is flexing some power to even be in this situation. She don't need this dude, you know, all this kind of stuff or whatever, she is flexing, flexing some power and being in a situation as a older woman, you understand what I'm saying? And so she is doing a lot of things that rich people, you know, might do or what have you.
But I always find that those age differences are usually more about a feeling than it is about the Facts of the situation and like the fact of, do we actually have things in common? Like there are people, I know a lot of men who date younger women because of the controlling factor. Those babies don't have enough experience to know when that man is pulling wools over his eyes or doing the things that he's doing. They don't date women their own age because they know that we would call out certain things or what have you. So I think when it is in the opposite direction and you're dealing with men, I think that if they're over the age, you know, if they're talking about 25, 26 year olds, then baby, they. Men, men need to figure that out. But as far as women flipping the game, black trans women flipping the game, gang black, you know, I' ma have a less critique for them on those dynamics, but I'm still going to have the full critique. If we're talking about underage, that is a red line, period. If we're talking about statutory rape or people dating minors, I'm not with that period at all.
[02:03:43] Speaker B: But let's be clear that that's not what this was. And right. And she, Laverne was not R. Kelly or any of the. This is somebody that had his own job.
From what she's saying. I don't know this the white Maggie man, I don't know him. But like, and also we're not going to act like older because I'm now, I'm now getting to the auntie phase of my transness. We're not going to act like we don't pull younger adult 8 men like it because the dolls just don't age. And we can't, we can't help that.
[02:04:22] Speaker A: We, we really don't. I mean, can I, can I, can.
[02:04:25] Speaker B: I, like, let's be hon honest here.
[02:04:28] Speaker A: You know, can I, can I just sit it right here for a second and just say this is, this is a 44 year old mug, right?
[02:04:35] Speaker B: 36 turn 37 this year, baby. It is what it is. What it is, honey. Yeah, it is what it is. But I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's that bad. I just think because of trans Massage noir, which is a real thing.
[02:04:55] Speaker A: It's a real thing. Real thing.
[02:04:56] Speaker B: The, the level at W, it's like we're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't. We, we, we're lying about our experiences. They're not real. But then when they happen, it's like.
[02:05:07] Speaker A: No See here, go to our doing it right now calling, telling us that we lying about our experience. No, we not lying.
[02:05:13] Speaker B: I'm 36. I was born in 88, honey.
[02:05:16] Speaker A: Yep. And I was born in 1980. Yve 28th, 1980. I'm a Sagittarius Leo rising.
[02:05:23] Speaker B: Sagittarius Sun, Virgo Moon, Libra rising.
[02:05:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[02:05:28] Speaker B: This is what minding your business and staying in your lane gets you.
[02:05:32] Speaker A: Absolutely. Well, listen, I am so proud. I have to say to you though, Brianna as well, I'm so very proud of you. I continue to be proud of you and just what you've done with your life, becoming an attorney, dealing with all of the challenges that came along with that, still showing up for commitment, community, and still believing in love, you know, like you said for yourself. Because I know that. I know we've been around for a while, so we've been through these different phases. And the reality is these men have been educated over time. The reality is, I. We are done with people talking about, well, you gotta give us, you know, time. This is all new. No, no, sweetie, this is new to you.
This is new to you. And the thing is, is that a lot of these men have been lying about knowing about us. They know exactly what to find us. They know what web pages to find us on. They know what streets to find us on. So we have been dealing with this a very long time.
[02:06:24] Speaker B: They know how to douche now. So they, they, they into all the stuff now.
[02:06:29] Speaker A: Well, well, I. I'll just say this.
I don't discriminate against that. I don't judge men in that way. So even though I do not no longer have a piece, I will strap a piece on for you. You know what I'm saying?
Listen, I'll give you what you want.
[02:06:44] Speaker B: I'm glad they're learning how to douche, because I was. I was tired of the paint, like, do it. But they have knowledge. It is. It is what it is. They had. They have knowledge. They know how to pursue the girls. They know the language. They know. And I'mma let you in since. Since y'. All, since everybody out there was telling Laverne that it's so many black left leaning politically, men that are trans amorous, that are dating the girls and will to partner and marry the girl so we can get the financial benefits of marriage and the tax breaks. Could you send some of them my way since. Since it's just plentiful with all of these men who are not mega and get it. Can you, like, send some of Them my way.
[02:07:28] Speaker A: I mean, I know it's got to be ridiculous for CIS women to even jump on that. And the reason why I say that is cuz CIS women know, CIS black women know how hard it is when they are very intentional. They are very real about their own business boundaries. They can meet a man in church and he is lying. He just there in church to cosplay at church there. And, and that's the other thing that I thought was a really important point that does not need to be overlooked too much.
Men are taking from us and at many times they are stealing from us because what they are doing is, is, is telling us that they are someone they're not, that they are. So again, they want to blame and say that trans women are the ones being deceptive when. No, no baby, it's these men who are not telling you who they are. They're barely telling themselves who they really are.
[02:08:25] Speaker B: They want your love, your emotional labor, your healing so they, so they can be. That's also why I don't desire marriage because men typically benefit from, from marriage. Not, not women, women. Women are taken from.
[02:08:40] Speaker A: I came up in this house, when I came up in the house one time I had was dating this man that was selling real estate. His patriarchal cell tried to, he was dating me and trying to talk to me all kind of silly and was like order. Like I was like, I was like.
[02:08:55] Speaker B: What do you think this is?
[02:08:57] Speaker A: I.
What's going on? And, and, and, and it's like some women want, want, will, will. Even if they win in the bread and do everything, they will play their role as subservient to this man because they think that's the natural order of things. When I think the natural order of things is this, I don't think the natural order of things is partnership. And the reason why I don't think that is because if that was it, then that's the way it would be. Meaning it would be so undeniable that we would be linked to these things. But the reality is we are born alone and we will die alone. And I think the less is for us to love every moment of life, whether it is with someone or without.
[02:09:40] Speaker B: And you have. And this is something I have to tell myself every day. I have value as a single person. I have. My life has meaning as a single person. That even if I never am partnered or never get married, my life still means something. And this is something that I, I have had to do lots and lots of work and lots of therapy.
[02:10:00] Speaker A: Therapy.
[02:10:01] Speaker B: But I still Value and I don't need to be next to a man to, to have value. And that's something that I struggled with in my transition for because on the trans side and CIS woman who's on the line listening, sometimes a lot of us trans women will use men to validate our transition and we'll stay in situations way longer than we need to stay in because we think that being next to this men, men makes us more of a woman even if he's not giving the best of but no, I have value as a single woman. My friendships with my girlfriends have that and yeah, it's just we're, we're all fighting the same struggle. So sis, women really need to see themselves in this thing because just like y' all struggling and y' all have to to y' all get to the place where you see your, your mama and your auntie in her the 60s and they don't got no them. The husband died or they divorced them and all they rolled with is their group of girlfriends that like to me that is the prize to have your group of girlfriends because you really can't depend on these men. And again when you partner with men it's usually the men that end up benefiting and women don't get anything in return and they end up dying tired and exhausted and unappreciated. And that's, that's not how that the reason I look this young is because I prioritize myself.
It's a skill. Yes, it's a skill.
[02:11:32] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for prior prioritizing yourself and being a possibility model, you know, for us just around just again. I, I've always seen you creating your own lane, finding your own happiness. I don't ever, I have never felt that you have had this energy of ever feeling less than because you haven't have I haven't had a man or not doing this. You've always contributed to the world and been up there in the front lines with us as we've marched for our, our rights and different things. So like whether we have love or not from CIS men is not going to stop us from living our lives as beautiful black trans people.
So thank you so much for joining me tonight. I hope to have you on another night, you know, because there's going to be plenty girl plenty of conversations. Absolutely.
[02:12:19] Speaker B: And also to ole don't just have the binary black trans girls for the trans stuff. We live very black ass lives. So invite us to, to the other things things too.
[02:12:28] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.
[02:12:31] Speaker B: I'll see y' all later.
[02:12:32] Speaker A: All right. Thank you so much.
Yes. So, again, thank you, everybody. First of all, who joined in on the conversation tonight? This was a very lively conversation. I think we hit a lot of points.
Before we go today.
I am going to go to my book over here and, and drop a little Buddhist breadcrumb.
Hopefully y' all don't see the pajamas I'm wearing right now underneath the situation.
But what I want, what I want to share with you all as a Buddhist breadcrumb before we leave this week, I was. There's a podcast that I listened to. It's called Buddha Ability, about all of our abilities to pull the Buddhahood out of ourselves, to tap into our Buddha nature. So it's called Buddha Ability. I believe that I was the first guest ever on the podcast on their first season. They are now in, like, season three of the podcast. And the reason why I want, I, I'm, I'm mentioning this is because I was watching a specific interview, interview of the podcast, and it was with a black.
It was with a black, young black girl.
And when I tell you, I was so moved by this interview and by her experience, I, she, I think she, she's not in high school, but I know she, I don't think she's in high school. She might be, be like college age or something like that. But I will say this. I found Buddhism at 25.
I wish that I could have the experience as this young black woman who we call a fortune baby. We call folks fortune babies who are born into a household where the parents are practicing Buddhism, where they're already chanting.
And so they've been born with that fortune to already have it presented to them. And so one of the books that is one of these amazing books from our organization, from one of the presidents of our organization who passed away.
It's called Discussions on Youth.
Now, in our SGI organization, when we say youth, we have different divisions. We have the women's division, the men's division. We also have a non binary, you know, division. Or we have, I think we have, I know non binary folks get to choose whichever they want, but I know we also have our courageous Freedom division that is all lgbtq.
But to be in the youth division is to be 34 years of age or younger. So they consider the youth to be 34 and younger. But this discussions on youth, this was a book that I found back in the early of my practice. In this book is.
This is what every young person.
If I could gift every single young person with this book, I, I Would that is how important.
This is such an incredible book and it's, it's funny because it's from our Buddhist organization, but if you read it, it doesn't read like a Buddhist text. It is, it feels like common, common sense and like, like so there is a section in here and this will be our Buddhist breadcrumb. I just flipped it open so there are so many things that I could like intentionally go to, but I just flipped this open and I flipped it open to a page where it says great people possess humility.
It says Dr. Pauling was a person of outstanding character. Though famous throughout the world, he always wore a warm smile and, and was never the least bit arrogant.
I remember hearing that he flew from San Francisco to meet with you at Los Angeles Campa campus of Soca University, which was open in Calabasas, California. With the spirit that he would go, that he would go anywhere for a heart to heart talk with someone about peace. Dr. Pauling traveled hundreds of miles to meet you. That was very impressive. Obviously a sign of the tremendous regard he had for you. So he goes on to say that that one thing, one thing all great people have in common is their modesty.
Arrogance is a sign one lacks true ability.
I have met hundreds of world leaders, many of whom are truly excellent and very capable people.
Those who stand out in my mind are leaders not driven by ego, but those whose lives shine with an invincible spirit to devote themselves to humanity. Humanity.
So, and it goes on to say that doing the right thing is very important, but it is precisely because most people don't that our world faces so many problems.
Someone once observed that countless statues are erected in honor of war victors.
But why so few honoring those kill, killed or imprisoned for their resolute opposition to war?
Here we can see the distorted values of human society and once and one of history's grave errors deploring such contradictions.
Someone else observed that if you kill one person, you will be called a murderer. But kill millions and you will be revered as a hero.
So I, I, I, I read all of this to say that some of you have been listening to me and this podcast for months now, and maybe even for a year now, because we've been doing this for a while and you've been hearing me talk from a Buddhist perspective.
Now I want to ask you, has anything that I've said from that perspective sounded like force about what you should believe, about rules about who you should be and what you should do?
It's, it's, it's, it's it's such a practice that is something that each person will have to define for themselves. Because when you sit down in front of yourself with something such as the Gohonzon, like what's behind me in that wood box over there, there's a scroll that I chant to. And when you sit down in front of that, what we call a mirror to see your life condition and everything that's going on, it really clearly you have to understand what you are saying. Seen is your reflection. That ain't got nothing to do with them. They ain't got nothing to do with your mama, ain't got nothing to do with your boss, ain't got nothing to do with your kids, ain't got nothing to do with your husband or your wife or your partner.
So as annoying as they are, as challenging as that job might be, as whatever the case may be, we learn in this practice that you take this on so that you can see yourself and your wisdom and your strength and your ability so clear that you will never again seek outside yourself something that you are already endowed with, that you won't look outside yourself for love, that you won't think that your opportunities are going to come from somewhere else or some meeting somebody else, or from chance or for happenstance, but that you were tap in to the same source that Christians talk about that people who would say they're blessed and God bless them with this, that and the third blah, blah, blah talked about, listen, we have access to creating the same kind of valuable life, but it's going to look different for all of us and it's going to hit different for all of us. Words are going to land different for all of us.
But what I love so much about this practice is when I go to our Buddhist, Buddhist meetings and there was like recently a time that I went to a Buddhist meeting and I hadn't been to one in a minute.
And hopefully my, my mic is I hadn't been to a Buddhist meeting in a second and I was really wrapped up in my own just not despair, but I was hunkered down with my own challenges and like trying to pay these bills and figure this out and figure this that out. And when I went to the meeting and I heard someone else's experience about how they are interpreting this practice in their life, how they are using it, not how they're telling you and somebody else and the people in their lives what to do and how they should change.
But one after another they're telling us stories about how, how ch they change their environments and their circles, circumstances by first changing their mindsets themselves, their effort, their understanding, all of these different things. So just know that every opportunity that we have is an opportunity for us to open our. Open our minds and start to stop taking advice from. From people who have not been where you have been, who have not gone through certain things that you have gone through, who are not going to acknowledge the very real challenges that we face, but who also believe in your ability to overcome all of these things and to experience a sliver of joy and peace and all these different things. Even. Even I don't want to get too deep into the things. So I'll just say this.
This week, I hope that you find multiple opportunities to be humble, to humble ourselves, themselves.
There's so much going on in the world and on the Internet and there's so many times when we want to pile on and join the peanut gallery of people judging and commenting and joking about other people's real live experience and show a little bit of humility for the fact that we are not absolved. We are not immune from being made a fool of, from making mistakes, from being lied to, from loving the wrong person, you know, but there's also always, for me, room for real conversations, real dialogue, so we don't have to shy away from having difficult, challenging conversations. Because in the challenge, that's where we grow. That's why they call it growing pains.
So this week, don't run away from challenge. Don't run away from opportunities to see yourself in someone else's struggle, to find your humility, but also find your courage to speak up and hold yourself accountable and hold those that you trust to represent present you, those that you are in community with and those who claim to be your family and your loved ones, be willing to have the courage and the love. Love each other enough to be honest, to be direct, to hold each other accountable with love.
Okay, thank you all for joining me tonight for this little Buddhist bread crumb and for all the things. We went for a couple hours tonight, but I do want you check out that bootability podcast.
It's. It's just absolutely amazing.
Thank you so much. A black square said love this. Thank you so much.
Tar says you are so true. You want to call everybody else's sheep because we still are still are traumatized from being called one before. Exactly. Yes, yes. And somebody said yes, mother, in my quay voice. Yes, absolutely. All right, you all have a great evening. Thank you so much for everybody who gave to this live stream. I can't thank you enough because sometimes, like I said, y' all can. All y' all can call me Christine Yamaguchi. Christy Yamaguchi. Because a girl be ice skating. I'd be skating on thin ice. And I'm. I've been gotten good at it.
I'm robbing Peter to pay Paul. Absolutely. I'm robbing Peter's ass to pay Paul. Absolutely. So thank you for giving to this live stream so I don't have to rob too page many people. Thank you. And when I say rob, you know, you know, I only rob the people who are good easy marks, you know, like white people who are racist MAGA cops, you know, stuff like that. I' ma take their money, you know, I'mma rob that Peter or whatever his name was that was dating Laverne. I will rob you.
No, I'm just kidding. Don't arrest me.
All right, everybody, have a good night. Thank you so much for joining me. This is now no opportunity wait wasted.
