Black Joy Through The Lens with Andre Perry

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome back to now. No opportunity wasted. I'm your host, Angelica Ross. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Woo. [00:00:18] Speaker C: A lot has gone on, so let's. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Go ahead and get things kicked off with Buddhism day by day for August 26 that says, quote, there is no trace of coercion or concern for appearances in Nichrin's behavior. He looked on those who were suffering, those who were bravely fighting alongside him as if they were himself in the same situations. He prized each and every one of them. He encouraged them and sympathized with them. And we must never forget that the true essence of humanity is to be found in this. When we observe Nijran's actions, we are deeply struck by the conviction that this is the way a Buddhist must live. And listen, I really appreciate this word today, specifically because I've been living my life in a way in which when I recognize the suffering of other people, regardless of if I share the same identities, communities, culture, citizenship or not, those who are bravely speaking up and standing up around the world for peace, for, into war, and to genocides, wherever they're standing from, I feel like I am. I just. I know that I am not in the thick of things with a lot of folks, but I do feel things as if I were going through those situations myself. So when people ask me all the time, why are you advocating for this community or for that community? It's because my practice teaches me to do so. So, you know, for the past 14 years, this is what I've been taught, and it is what I am committed to practicing in my own life. Sometimes it feels and definitely appears to the outside that I'm doing all of this to a fault and that it could potentially personally cause me more harm than good. And as another black trans woman that I am in community with pointed out to me, you know, what's the point of advocating for Palestine if doing so makes your platform invisible to the communities that you want to serve? I had to really grapple with that question for a while, and I continued to chant for clarity. And I believe that I am now very clear on how I need to move forward. One of the many great sayings that we have within the SGI is from this moment forward, and that reminds us that we can always start over, start anew, and we are free to let go of who we thought we were before. What you believed about yourself and others and anything else that stands in the way of you moving forward in your life with purpose. Those who have received an email from me might have noticed over the years that instead of signing my emails with, like, you know, thank you or sincerely, I end all of my emails saying on purpose, Angelica Ross. That is because I have always felt a sense of purpose with my life. And as time goes on, it just begins to get clearer and clearer for me exactly what my purpose is. Like so many others who were tuned in this week to the DNC, well, actually, I didn't tune in, you know, to the whole thing. The first time was the night that Oprah was speaking. I actually didn't have any plans on watching. I didn't know who was on the lineup. But when I walked into my little den and I saw Oprah in that beautiful purple, her hair all laid, she looked exquisite. And to be honest, her beauty had me gagged. So I sat down on the couch and I listened to what she had to say. Now, out of all the things that Miss Oprah had to say, the one thing that I remember is her identifying as an independent. And I thought to myself, well, geeze, I wish I could just identify as an independent. I've never been down with the republican agenda and now I'm realizing the democratic party is not quite liberal enough for me. I'm finding that Democrats are just as willing to violate human rights as Republicans. However you look at the situation, the international courts have spoken and they say that Netanyahu is definitely committing genocide in Gaza and has issued warrants for his arrest. And UK has finally decided not to challenge the ICJ's arrest warrants for Netanyahu, while the US is giving a literal war criminal space to speak to our congress and continues to remind us all of America's iron clad commitment to Israel, which I believe is going without saying that much has been very clear. That move to not allow palestinian speakers on the DNC stage was a huge mistake and I believe that's going to cost Harris a lot of votes. Kamala stood on stage and repeated lies about Hamas raping hostages while not mentioning anything about Israel being in court, actually trying to defend its right to rape Palestinians. I wish that this was fake news, but it's not. Google it. BP Harris also opened her speech speaking about her upbringing and said how her mother taught her to never complain about injustice but do something about it. I feel that many who claim to be on the liberal side of things have sort of been making a blanket judgment of protesters like they are just people complaining about things on the Internet and not doing anything. So I caught that little shade. So many folks are not just calling out the US's involvement in genocide, folks have been creating mutual aid funds. American doctors, nurses and journalists have all been putting their lives in danger in order to do something. Madam Vice President, there are a lot of us doing all that we can do and we are being met with police violence, the suppression of our right to free speech both online and protesting in the streets. And some of us have had our livelihoods taken from us for speaking up. I, along with many others, have lost countless opportunities or jobs because we stand with Palestine. So now what? In the words of Kamala Harris, let's be clear. She loves that phrase, baby. And she made it crystal clear where she stands and she's standing with Israel. Here's the thing, though. Kamala Harris is running for the president of the United States of America, not to be the next prime minister of Israel or whatever that position is. So I think we need to be clear with Kamala. You want our vote, we want our tax dollars to go towards our country's issues, not towards Israels. Genocide and an IDF trained cop city were tired of being told that we dont have money for healthcare, education, housing and food, but we always have money for war. Hmm. Funny how that works. As I said to someone in my comments on Instagram, imagine a husband telling his wife they don't have money for the mortgage, groceries, the kids college or the light bill, but has been sending billions of dollars to another bitch overseas. Huh uh, honey, I got one word for you. Divorce. And with that folks, I think I'm done. I think I'm ready to divorce the democratic party and this corrupt two party system. I just hit up my friend and former Georgia House representative Renita Shannon, who has been consulting with me on my run for office. And I just, I just messaged her and I just said, quote, I gotta go the independent route. I know it's gonna be tough, but I feel like it might be the path that I'm supposed to take in answer to all the folks who claim that they don't want this two party system anymore. I was afraid that she was going to try to talk me out of it, but she just said, I get it. So I started doing my research and what do you know, it is possible for me to run for the position I want to run for in Georgia as an independent. Now, I'm not planning to run until 2026. So in the meantime, I'll just continue to build coalitions with all the amazing organizations right here in Georgia who are doing the work, who are advocating for our rights and for true equality for everyone, no matter how you identify. So I'm just so grateful to have friends like Renita Shannon in my life who are helping me choose, understand that I can stay myself and still get involved. Renita will also be on an upcoming podcast episode where we dive into politics, the election project 2025, and so much more. So you definitely don't want to miss that episode. I also got feminista Jones coming up as well. Both of these brilliant black women have helped to bring so much nuance that is often missing from so many of these conversations. But today's episode is kind of a throwback. My conversation with my friend, artist and photographer Andre Perry was actually the first conversation I ever recorded. Dawn Richard was actually the first one we aired, and Andre was actually at the taping, and I introduced him to dawn. And if you haven't seen it yet, I just posted a campaign that I did with Dawn Richard and the hip hop caucus to get out the vote, saying, respect my vote. And she also included Andre in the campaign, you know, because we all met that time. So I was just so happy to see that when I walked in on the set, that's when I just knew that the universe was doing its thing and connecting the people that need to get connected, I'm saying. So take a listen to my conversation with Andre Perry. [00:13:04] Speaker C: Welcome to now no opportunity wasted with Angelica Ross. I am your host, Angelica Ross. This is a podcast and a movement focus on making the most out of life's opportunities and challenges. Right now, today, we're gonna figure out, you know, how do we get through this stuff? And each person's challenges are different. That's why I'm sitting here and talking to as many people as I can to just understand how they were able to find a way and get through the challenges that they face and how they face, how they deal with opportunity. And I am here with none other than my friend and just amazing world renowned photographer, Andre Perry. Welcome to now, Andre. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [00:13:54] Speaker C: Now, listen, Andre, tell the people about the work that you do. Like, I'll just give him a light little something. Like, andre is a photographer, and, you know, I feel like, you know, photographer, that's like, the general title, but I feel like it's like, artiste. Like, there's more to it that I got. Cause image curator, I don't know what the exact words, but you have been able to go beyond just taking pretty pictures, but to expose something that isn't often seen, and that is the joy and the happiness from black people and black lives, like so much of our environment and our world, capitalizes and makes money off of the pain and suffering of black folks. So let's talk about, first of all, your career and just, like, coming into photography. What was it that led you to specifically say, you know what I want to do photos focusing on black folks and happy black people? [00:15:03] Speaker B: Well, there was definitely a journey from the time that I decided to shoot happy black people. But it all started in 1990. 819 99. I saw the movie love Jones. [00:15:14] Speaker C: We love love Jones. [00:15:16] Speaker B: And I became obsessed with Nia Long's character because she was a photographer in the movie. And, you know, she was all about that entrepreneurial life, you know, trying to book gigs in New York City. I think they were filming it in Chicago. And me being from Philadelphia, first, I was a part of the dirty backpack clique. So that was with dirty backpack clique, you know? You know. [00:15:40] Speaker C: Wait, what's the dirty backpack? Click. Tell us about that. [00:15:43] Speaker B: Just all about, like, the incense and the shea butters. [00:15:47] Speaker C: I got you. I got you. [00:15:49] Speaker B: It was like the Erica Badews and India Ares and Jasmine Sullivan performing. I forgot what the spot it's called in Philly, but it was all about the neo soul movement. That's what you consider the dirty backpack. So me being from Philly, me having that in the back of my head, seeing that movie, I immediately was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be a photographer. So my mom, from seeing the movie. [00:16:16] Speaker C: Now, I just want to pause on that for 1 second, because I think that is. I just want to pause and recognize for a moment how important it was for us to see images like love Jones. Cause I remember when I saw love Jones, it inspired me to kind of think that, you know, black love and just the poeticness about it and just, I mean, obviously didn't show up a perfect picture of love, but love perfect. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:16:45] Speaker C: But I think not only the fact that Nia Long was a photographer in the movie, but I think the movie itself was so cinematically shot. Was that also part of what pulled you in? [00:17:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. There were certain scenes that would never leave my mind. I mean, the scene when they were going from one spot to the other on a motorcycle, driving through, I forgot what park in Chicago. It was just so beautiful. And I think Lorenz Tate was smoking a cigarette, and he passed it back to Nia long, and it was just shot so well. Then there was another scene when they were dancing in this reggae club, and it was just like, lights on them. I think it was like this high angle shot, and it was just like they were perfectly lit in the middle of the room while everybody else was kind of dim, and your focus was specifically on them. So, yes, it was a combination of the character, you know, being a photographer and then the way how it was shot. So all of that. But it's funny because, like, not only. Not up until maybe a couple years ago, you know, I always heard the phrase representation matters. But then when I started really, like, connecting the dots, I'm like, yo, if I've never seen that movie, I probably would never have wanted to be a photographer. [00:18:00] Speaker C: Wow. [00:18:01] Speaker B: It was that specific. It was. Because I remember I was sitting. I went to. I went to the movie on, like, April 12. My birthday was on April 14. No, the date exactly. I went with one of my homies. His name is Talib. We were in high school together. Our birthdays was two days apart. And he sat in front of me. I sat behind him. And I just remember, like, if I was not in that place in that time, I probably would have not been a photographer. [00:18:26] Speaker C: Well, okay. Okay, so now let's back up a little bit. Okay, so before. Cause before I get to the history, let the people know. Break out the phone. Like, I need him to break out the list. So break out. [00:18:39] Speaker A: Tell the people. [00:18:40] Speaker C: Cause we need to celebrate. Like, tell the people all the different brands that you have worked with. [00:18:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I work with Target. I work with Google wallet, Puma, Facebook, Sperry, Lululemon, propel water, which is under Pepsi. I work with JC Penney's, Coors Light, Anheuser Busch, MTV, Bet, Hard rock, hotels, Walmart, Nike. I mean. [00:19:08] Speaker C: I mean, the list goes on. The list goes on. [00:19:09] Speaker B: Y'all. [00:19:10] Speaker C: Like, just. And the images. So not only have you collaborated with those brands, but you also have published your own book. I did happy black people. Is that what it calls? [00:19:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's called happy black people. And so. So, once I decided to be a photographer, I picked up my first camera in 2000. Yeah, the year 2000. That's when I graduated high school. My mom got it for me, and I then ended up going to Art Institute of Philadelphia to study photography. But this was around a time when Internet was still very new. You know, no one had portfolios on website. The only other photographer I knew at the time was my teacher. Right? So, to be honest, like, when I left Art Institute of Philadelphia, I didn't know that I could do this full time. So I spent most of my young adult life doing my digital advertising and marketing. But then fast forward to around 2012. So, as everybody knows, I always get hate for this, but I haven't. Android I just always like that. I've been in. Listen, listen, I'm not gonna. That's another topic. That's another podcast. Nothing wrong with me. [00:20:16] Speaker C: There's nothing wrong. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Listen, so there's nothing to be. [00:20:19] Speaker C: I'm nothing out here shaming you. There is nothing wrong with having an Android. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Anyway, once Instagram came to Android, then I was like, okay, I wanna use Instagram to kinda like just showcase my creativity side. And I wasn't taking selfies at the time. I was mostly taking pictures of my friends on my phone. And then people were asking me like, yo, what kind of camera do you have? I was like, it's an Android. Cause of course, Android always take better pictures. [00:20:46] Speaker C: I will give you that. I will give you that. The camera on that Android is, is beautiful. [00:20:51] Speaker B: So, yeah, so then a friend of mine, he was running a blog and he was like, yo, do you mind taking pictures of us? I was like, cool. And prior to that, I never even picked up a camera since 2000. So it's been like twelve years of me never picking up a camera. So when I got his camera, he had like a canon t three. I rebel. And I started taking pictures. I was like, oh yes, I missed this. This is what I love. And it was more like on the editorial side, right? So as soon as that shoot happened, the next day, I bought that camera, right? So that was around 2012, 2013, so. [00:21:31] Speaker C: But you started with an iPhone. I mean, with. Not. You started with the phone. With the phone. I started and I just want to. I'm pausing sometimes in these as he's telling his story because I acknowledge and I understand that when it comes to building a dream, you cannot make excuses about what equipment you do and don't have. You have to find a way to access your dream now. And if you have the vision for it and you have the feel for that, I think that that's, you will find a way. Like those who say they want to be singers, some folks are just talking and fantasizing because those who are really want to be singers are singing at birthday parties and bar mitzvahs and anywhere that somebody will hold the stage. I want to go back just another second too, because I want to ask you, you said that graduating high school, your mom bought you a camera. You also said you went to school for art, for photography, for photography. Now me personally, when I was going to college and doing all those things, like my parents, we come from the background where my father worked a factory job. My mom was a teacher, as a teacher. And they're all about stability, you know, get that job with the, you know. So when it came to, like, writing, acting for art of any kind, it kind of was, like, shone upon. So talk to me a second about, like, your experience growing up and having. Did you always have support from your parents? [00:23:11] Speaker B: My mom, yes. I was lucky enough to whatever creative outlet that I wanted to explore, she was able to help me with that and helped me to explore it. I started playing the clarinet in fourth grade and then transitioned to saxophone from 9th grade. All throughout high school, but simultaneously, I took theater classes during summertime at Freedom Theater in Philly. I was in a marching band, jazz band, jazz choirs. So I was doing it all. I was doing a lot. I was very much into the creative sphere, and I was lucky enough to have my mom's support. [00:23:46] Speaker C: So do you think that doing all of those different types of things? Cause, you know, I think in today's day and age, when folks are coming up, people take things so seriously in the sense of, like, when you're creative, if you pick up one thing that you gotta, like, now I gotta be a professional clarinet player, you know? But as those of us who are considered to be multi hyphenates or people are like, wow, you're creative. You do this and you do that. Do you feel like being exposed to various different types of art helped you, or do you know? Cause I feel like as an artist, none of it's wasted. [00:24:22] Speaker B: I mean, has it helped me? Yes, it's definitely had. Because creating, being a creative is multifaceted. And if you're not necessarily creating something visual, still creating, like, a mood or a vibe. And the way how I'm gonna, you know, tie in my music with my photography is, I know a lot of times when I'm on these commercial sets, right, the majority of the times, each set that I'm on, and depending on the talent that I'm actually shooting, I create custom playlists that kind of, like, goes in with their personalities to pull the best out of them. And it's a small. It's like, a very small thing to when I'm on these larger sets, but it adds so much as someone who. [00:25:08] Speaker C: Is modeling in front of cameras a lot. And, like, I usually have to put my phone on to be like, they'd be like, what's your fiance? [00:25:15] Speaker B: If I already did my research on the person who I'm shooting, and I kind of, like, get an idea of what their aesthetic is, like, what they like. And I put that into music. Like, it's a communication that's really. You can't really describe, but it's a communication that's understood, and then they're able to just let loose a little bit more. That layer between photographer talent is then that wall is broken down. [00:25:39] Speaker C: That's amazing. I think as an artist, you're showing that where you're thinking about more than just the image. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because I'm also. And that's the thing that I was tying it back to. I'm not just creating good imagery. I'm creating a good vibe on set that I will always be remembered by. [00:25:52] Speaker C: And that vibe comes across on the image, though, like, you know, because people. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Are able to see something that's authentic and something that's super staged, you know what I mean? And then also, like, my goal is not just to, when I'm on these sets, it's not just to also create good imagery. My goal is also to create an experience where I can get rehired. Because as an entrepreneur, your last job could be your last job. You know what I mean? And sometimes. [00:26:13] Speaker C: Well, okay, wait. So. Okay, so let's talk about that for a second, because as we're sitting here talking about this, obviously we're talking about a lot of the highlights, right? These work with all these great companies. You know, great time in school, mama supported you, all the great things. But I know that none of that was easy. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:26:35] Speaker C: Like, number one, I feel like it must have been challenging to curate a space where you are an authority on black images, when, again, the world wasn't necessarily communicating that there's value in that, that we see value in that. How did you. What were some of the challenges, I think, I guess, that you faced early on. [00:27:00] Speaker B: So, again, I consider myself a lifestyle commercial photographer. Right. Lifestyle commercial photography has a history of predominantly white photographers, white males and white females, mostly white males. And when anybody starts off with shooting, they shoot people who, if you're trying to build your portfolio, you shoot people who you have easy access to. My easy access who are my friends who just happen to be black. Right. And the majority of, even before 2020, before the whole George Floyd thing with the brands that I already knew in mind that I wanted to work with those brands, those diversities are just sprinkled in. Right. Unless it's like black history month or unless it's something that's very targeted to the AA community. But my goal was to not have things specifically targeted to the AA community, but still have black people being able to be used as, once you see their images, you're not just seeing them black, they're also participating in whatever scenario that when you see a majority of these brand, these advertisements that are going to like to the masses to, which is called general audience, you know, whatever scenarios they're in, you know, I want to skate rock climbing or skating or working out also. So, like, that was my goal. And so some of the challenges that I had is when I first got signed, right. The first agency that I had, they were very aware that I was very green, and I was very eager to get into this industry. But one of the feedbacks that I've gotten when, after me being signed and I was just constantly doing test work with, being very intentional with the images that I'm producing. But one of the feedbacks that I've gotten was, I need to shoot more white people. So the question you asked me is, you know, how did I get, I. [00:29:03] Speaker C: Mean, if they're saying now. Cause I wanna, like, pause on that, like. Cause that sounds number one, rude, but at the same time, in my mind, it sounds to them and to me, not that it's right, but it sounds like, okay, maybe they. Right. If the mainstream market or the general market is, you know, and like, a lot of times we're talking to white people, we're trying to be commercialized or mainstream, is making sure that you white, famous or you, you know, you appeal to white people. So I can understand the notion, I guess. But what made you, what, what made you go beyond that notion of cause? Did you understand where they were coming from on that? [00:29:53] Speaker B: Yes, sure. Yes, sure. Yes. [00:29:56] Speaker C: It's like not saying that any of that is valid, by the way. Not saying that. [00:29:59] Speaker B: Oh, sure, I get it. But the point that I wanted to prove with all the test imagery that I was doing to appeal to these masked clients is I wanted to show my composition. I wanted to show my lighting, I wanted to show my directing skills. I wanted to show so much more that the last thing you should really think about is the color of the skin. And, you know, there is a bit of a formula when it comes to lifestyle photography, but the main formula is I didn't want to necessarily use white people as being, I wanted to break that rule but pay attention to everything else because I'm acing everything else. So that's what you should be paying attention to, right? [00:30:41] Speaker C: Yes. [00:30:42] Speaker B: And so again, like I said, sure, if I wanted to just, you know, easily. My thing was I didn't want to just grab a white girl or a white guy. Cause I also like, again, I didn't have a lot of access to just anybody and everybody, you know? And because I was super new, I didn't necessarily go the route of going to modeling agencies. I just wanted to. Cause, like, if I mess up, like, I didn't, that's. That's their career on the line. Like, I didn't want to. So I legit was just grabbing on my friends and. [00:31:09] Speaker C: But did you know at the time when you were grabbing your friends, did you know at the time that. Cause in acting, we have a whole category of basically, like, character actors, and for character actors, they want everyday looking people of all shapes and sizes and what have you. So I feel like you kind of maybe even by doing that, just stumbled upon what was also lacking is seeing images of people who aren't about perfection. [00:31:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. I made sure that I got a people who remind me of my cousins or my sister or, you know, my aunt. So I definitely wasn't necessarily just going after the people who just look good. You know, I went after people who had personalities and who were able to just, like, you know, bring something different to what people see, which is you see it way more now. You know, you see a good range of representation now than before when I first started. So I was definitely kind of, like, on that wave before. It's now, like, trendy and acceptable now. [00:32:12] Speaker C: So tell me, what would you see if you were thinking about all of the shoots that you've done, maybe for all the brands or all the different people friends that you shot? What pops out to you as, like, your most memorable shoot? [00:32:27] Speaker B: Well, it's not necessarily with the brands, per se. It's the fact that I'm able to hire people. My crew are people who were with me from the beginning, before I even started shooting. Right. So the people who I would actually test shoot on, they're paid crew. Yeah, no more. So my assistants that travel with me to every job. [00:32:51] Speaker C: But you're making sure they're paid as a part of the crew. [00:32:54] Speaker B: Absolutely. So my day ones, Alex Sanchez is my homie, CJ Hart. And Gabe Nisito, those are my 1st, second, and third assistants. So one of the highlights of just my career is the fact that I'm able to work with these major corporations and bring the people who I really came up with and helped me get me. [00:33:12] Speaker C: That's amazing. That's amazing. And I've had the chance to actually hang out with you and your people. And, like, it's just, first of all, they're great. They have great energy. But also, we talk about shooting regular people, but also your friends are extremely beautiful. Like it. I mean, gorgeous. Alex Wright is the one that's like 40 something. [00:33:36] Speaker B: He's gonna kill me. [00:33:38] Speaker C: But he's incredible. I mean, looks great. I mean, you look great, too. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:33:44] Speaker C: Me too, you know. Cause we all are in that. We all in that little older club. And so let me ask you this. So what, as far as, like, okay, so I know that that was a challenge, shooting just black images and like, now finally carving your own niche out for that in this environment that we're in. How has your environment, because basically, this podcast, no opportunity wasted, generally talks about opportunities and challenges, but I kind of contextualize a lot of this with buddhist philosophy, and just, I'm trying to give the people what we call a new common sense, because basically Buddhism is reason. It's not about, oh, you should believe in this, and you need to believe in that. But if I can connect people to the concepts that are really powerful, I think it'll just give people access to something that has been tainted by people trying to dominate and spiritually abuse people. So there's something that we talk about called oneness in environment. And it's basically a concept that gets you to understand that you are not separate from your environment, and that no matter where you are, your environment is reflecting to you something about where you are, what you're struggling with, your value, what you do value, what you don't value, what you desire, what's elusive to you. So, have you found yourself to always feel like you're in an environment that has been fertile ground for you to develop, or have there been moments when you felt like you've needed to change your environment? And I, and I even I'm a preface this by saying, you know, when we talk about this, we understand that really the change that's happening when we need to change our environments, when we need a change of scenery or any of those things, is really the change in us to then change our environment. So, as your journey was going through, was there anything in you? Cause you talk about being in Philly, I think you've been in New York. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Mm hmm. [00:36:01] Speaker C: And now you're in LA. What has been the call for you? How has your environment played a part in your sort of development of when it's time to, like, be here and really dig into my environment, as well as that thing that tells you I need to leave this environment? [00:36:23] Speaker B: I think the environment, more so for me, was a state of mind, because it didn't necessarily have to do with where I was physically, but it was mostly the state of mind. And what changed was mostly my motivation was my frustration because I work in these corporate jobs prior to. So when I picked up the camera in 2012 after shooting my friends, you know, I started shooting more and I started shooting more, right? And I was, what was happening was the work that I was doing. I was. At first I was liking it. I was working at these companies like complex magazine, bet, doing ad operations. But as more, as time and time has went on and I started shooting more, I realized that that was kind of, like, more of my calling. And I realized that the job, my nine to five, I was kind of, like, hating more and more. And, you know, all the jobs that I mentioned, too, all those jobs I got fired from, too, because, like, my attention just not was there anymore. Right. So what happened was, you know, my mind went. I had my last job, which was with spin media, right? I was like, I had around $30,000 in my bank account at this time. I kind of knew the direction where I wanted to, you know, do with photography, but I still had, like, no idea with, you know, really how to get from a to z because it was so far fetched. But I just knew that if I didn't do anything at this point, then I would regret it. I knew I also didn't want to be one of those people who, you know, there was a lot of people who I was kind of, like, you know, associating myself with. And they were kind of, we were all starting our entrepreneurial paths in our creative fields. And I also didn't want to be one of those person that looked back and seeing where they are. And then I'm still, like, depressed or stuck in what I was doing. So, like, I was figuring that out and. But it was mostly like, if I don't do this, I will regret it. And if it nothing, if it doesn't work out, then I'm just gonna move back into my mom's basement back in Philly. So, like, the environment was more so my mind, and it was more so on, like, survival mode, mentally surviving, because I was just like, I gotta do something. I cannot. And I remember one time, okay, so, Jenny, I'm very specific with dates. I think it was around January 12 or 13th. I mentally made up in my mind. I'm like, I was crying. I was like, I can't do this no more, right? I can't work this nine to five no more. I was working in the city. I was living in Brooklyn. And the entire ride from New York to Brooklyn, I was bawling on the train. I was bawling on the train. I was like, yo, what am I going to do? Because this ain't it no more. This nine to five, I've never. Prior to that, I've never quit a job without looking for another job, without having something to do, something lined up right. So I was like, am I really about to do this? Am I really just going to take time off and focus on photography? I cried all the way home. January 14, 2016, is when I submitted a letter to my job. I'm saying, effective immediately, I'm canceling. And after that, I moved to Brazil for about three months to do my whole eat, pray, love thing. [00:39:38] Speaker C: I was trying to figure out what. [00:39:39] Speaker B: I was gonna do. [00:39:41] Speaker C: First of all, I just gotta say, as a black man, I am just, first of all, proud of you for taking these moments for yourself. Like. Like you said, like, you're sitting on a train and you're thinking about going left or going right. And I just feel like, for black men, and this is something that, for black people in general, because I think that we're told as kids growing up and everything is just like, a lot of what we're told is about how to stay safe. Not just stay safe, how to play it safe, like, play it safe. So you're not quitting a job with nothing lined up. You're not going to Brazil and doing your eat, pray, love thing. The more and more I see black people step outside and just take a risk. I know that it. I know that because I've been there, too. I know how scary that was, nigga. [00:40:43] Speaker B: That's all I can say. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Brazil. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah, no, like, another thing that was in the back of my head, you know, everybody goes through this when they grow up, but I was like, I think 36. I was like, 36. Like, I'm old. Like, well, how am I going to start a career at 36? Like, all over again? [00:41:00] Speaker C: So I had, meanwhile, that's young, but. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, it was rough. It was really, really rough. The only thing that kind of let me jump off that cliff was the fact that the job that I had was pretty much like a revolving door. So I knew that if shit didn't work out, I was going to probably be able to, like, you know, get another job. But also, I just knew that I did not want to get another job. But so kind of like, going back to what we were talking about earlier, I guess, the way how I kind. [00:41:35] Speaker C: Of like, wait, wait, wait. But was that your last. Was that was. You said, was that your last time working for someone else. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:41] Speaker C: Okay. [00:41:42] Speaker B: 2016. Yep. [00:41:43] Speaker C: 2016. [00:41:44] Speaker B: Spin media. [00:41:46] Speaker C: So 2016. So we're talking about seven years. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:41:51] Speaker C: First of all, congratulations. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:41:54] Speaker C: Because that's another thing. So again, seven years, that's no light. That's no light time, especially as an entrepreneur. So I want you to talk about, because I have this saying that we say some days chicken, some days feathers. I learned that from Nikki Aragoose. Lloyd Rip. Nikki Aragoose. But some days chicken, some days feathers. And just understanding that when you are no longer on that weekly check schedule, that some days you're going to have the full roasted chicken, two sides and lemonade, and other days you're going to ask them, give you some water in a cup and some rice or whatever, you know, whatever it's going to be. So, like, how did you get, how did you get by? Like, and how did you keep your I say spirit? And I want to break this little lesson down, too, like, as just kind of a buddhist concept and lesson that I want people out there to understand. You absolutely need some sort of practice around engaging in, and I'm just going to explain this in this way. Some Christianity, Christians and stuff like that, they might say soul, spirit, all those things, right? You hear a lot of people say energy these days and stuff like that. But even just let's think about battery, you know, or energy. Like, okay, let's say there's an energy thing in your chest, in your body, and, you know, when you have really low energy, you don't got a lot. You know, there are times when you were, like, amped up and I got a lot of energy. You know, there are times when your energy is really optimistic and positive and, you know, when your energy ain't right and everything is negative. So I always say that whatever you want to call it, your battery, your energy, your spirit, your soul, that you have to develop a relationship with that source and know that if your energy is low or if it is feeling a little negative, that you have something that you lean towards that's more positive than negative. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:20] Speaker C: That has more positive effects than negative. So out of all of these years, what was the conversation like for you as your own cheerleader, as your own spiritual practice? Like, how did you keep yourself going when it was up and down? [00:44:35] Speaker B: Exactly that. It was very much up and down. And I'm not gonna try to answer this question with a cliche answer saying, you know, I talked to myself every morning and, you know, I had a routine. No, unfortunately, when it got low, it got low. Yeah, I'm very transparent with my depression. And please, especially, it was, being an entrepreneur is hard because the good thing about, you know, the trajectory of my career was that I saw, I didn't. I'm not gonna say I saw the light at the end of the tunnel, but I very much was clear with and very intentional with what I wanted. Right. But when things didn't necessarily work out and, you know, I was going on that downhill, you know, I thought it was the end of the world, you know, I allowed myself to really just allow the negative thoughts run my life. You know, physically. You know, I would spend literally weeks in bed. And then, you know, living in New York, I was living in a one bedroom apartment, very small brownstone, very tight. And when it's cold outside, you know, and if you're. When you're an entrepreneur, you know, you don't have that routine of getting out your bed every day. So when and then being that again, I knew what I wanted to do in terms of lifestyle photography. That means I'm always going to be on location outside. I can't go outside shooting, you know, happy black people or running in the sun or, you know, all that what I wanted to do in January, February. So at that time, you know, I just didn't know what to do, and I was not prepared because I didn't really also have anybody to talk to to understand what is the process between January and, you know, June. What do y'all do? Like, I didn't know. So I allowed myself to just really get into some really dark places. And then how did you get out? The sun came out. The time switched back to, you know, spring ahead. The time. [00:46:29] Speaker C: Well, let's, again, pause me here for a second. Cause I'm just saying that, like, sometimes people, you know, when you're dealing with things, sometimes you have these resources and these, you know, these people or places that you can go to, and sometimes all you might have is the change of the season. You understand? And so at the very least, this is. At the very least of what you can count on is a change of a season. Is the sun coming up again? Is this too shall pass? So again, you're saying, like, I have nothing but when that season changed. [00:47:16] Speaker B: So to kind of piggyback off of what you were just saying, I will say this, though. It is a bit easier to understand that seasons do change when it becomes more of a habit of or when you become familiar with the four seasons, because prior to knowing when they're coming, because that's the part that really kind of, like, held me back and not necessarily seeing, like, the end of the tunnel from that aspect, thinking that, you know, okay, that sun is going to come back out and I will, you know, get a little bit more motivated to continue, you know, but once years have gone past and I started developing. Developing a pattern, understanding that, okay, yes, I'm just gonna go through this period of time. I know what it's gonna be like. But to be honest, though, even though when I was going through, you know, when the time goes back, it would get darker earlier, I try to prepare myself mentally, and I would still get lost sometimes, even though I know I'm. It's gonna. [00:48:13] Speaker C: That seasonal affect disorder is real. [00:48:15] Speaker B: It's very real. It's very real. But what kept me, like, to be honest, when people ask me what kept me going time to be honest, like, and it wasn't necessarily a voice in my head, I got this. I got. It was just like, all right, let me just get out this bed. Let me just go do something real quick. And I remember there were these two test shoots that I've done that kind of really started solidifying my voice as a photographer. But I remember the day of, like, I really woke up. I was like, damn, should I? I was really, like, this close to be canceling certain things just because it was just like, I feel like I was going to wake up and it was just going to be another day. But once I did the shoot, I was like, yo, I'm so glad I did this. And I remember these specific shoots where those images still exist on my portfolio, and those images are still in my treatments that I submit to clients that align with their whole creative direction, because I was just very intentional with what I wanted to do that long ago. But if it wasn't for the fact of me just getting up, me kind of, like, understanding, all right, the season is over. Let me just. Let me just do what I'm supposed to do. Let me do the homework. And because I was able to understand that whole approach, then I was able to also understand that the seasons do happen, and then I'm going to get. [00:49:39] Speaker C: Out of it now. Do you see. Do you see yourself sort of taking advantage of the other seasons? Like, does that ever, has that ever, has that started? Because I know, like, right now, which, again, I'm very happy that you focus on happy black people, like, you know, and those things. What has the. Has there been anything else other than the sun is going to come out? Has there anything that those dark times or the other seasons have taught you? [00:50:10] Speaker B: I mean, has it been anything that those other seasons has taught me? [00:50:18] Speaker C: I mean, obviously you're resilient. You know what I mean? [00:50:20] Speaker B: Obviously, like, oh, you know, acknowledging that. Acknowledging my resilience, I think because, you know, it is easy to stay in places. And the fact that I was able to come out and always get better and better, and then when I was going in it and then still able to come out and just get better and better, acknowledging that, you know, I am growing. And I think with that, you have this level of gratitude that exists and exuberates through your personality. And when you kind of remind yourself, every time that, yo, I got out of it, I was good, then it just makes it easier and easier. And that's why I don't really experience it as bad as I did back in 2016 or pretty much my entire time in New York. [00:51:03] Speaker C: Well, think about it this way. Think about the first time that you had a, let's say a paid job, okay, where, like, all of a sudden, okay, now I'm taking money for this, and I gotta make great images to now you getting a job and going to the job. Talk about. Because this is what I want people to understand is, like, what you just talked about is overcoming challenges. What you just talked about is the fact that in the beginning, it was one way, but as you continue to get over each challenge, your resilience grew and you got stronger and stronger. So I guess. Cause a lot of people ask me the question, like, Angelica, how are you so confident, you know, about certain things? And I always say, listen, if you were to ask me to bake a three layer cake right about now, I might sweat bullets. If you asked me to do it for Meghan Markle's, you know, would they, wouldn't you get married again? Like, I don't mean like marrying another person, but I mean, like, renewing your vows. Yeah, yeah. Like, say, for instance, she. You wanted me to make a cake for the renewing of the vows ceremony for Meghan Markle. And that was my first time making a cake. I would be nervous, absolutely. I would be very, very nervous. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:52:23] Speaker C: But after making a thousands of cakes from people all over the world and doing all these things, then, yes, I'm gonna feel much more confident. So if you could think back to that, like, first time you started stepping behind that camera till to now, just tell me. Tell me about what you were feeling when you first started creating those images and where your confidence was. [00:52:51] Speaker B: So if we're talking about in 2016, after quitting my job, then really going at it really hard. My confidence came from being a little bit. What's the word? Not just, like, what's the word I'm looking for. Okay. Yes. It was necessarily delusion, but just. It was confidence, and I was just. I knew what I wanted to do. Right. So the feeling that I had when I got my first job was more so, like, yes, one plus one is adding up. [00:53:35] Speaker C: Yes. [00:53:35] Speaker B: Right? [00:53:36] Speaker C: Yes, yes. You didn't feel like a fraud in the moment? [00:53:39] Speaker B: No, I was like. Because prior to that, even. Yeah, prior to that and even up until, you know, me still building my crash, I was just. I knew what I wanted to do, and I was preparing myself for doing it, and I was just like, yes, this makes sense for me to get this job. So, yeah, it definitely. I didn't feel any other type of way, but other than, yeah, that's great. [00:54:01] Speaker C: Cause most people. Most. A lot of people, you know, really, really struggle with that. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you. We're gonna go. We're gonna wrap this up and ask you a few questions. So have you seen what's love got to do with it? [00:54:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:14] Speaker C: I mean, of course. I mean, we have a certain age. Everybody has seen that movie. Okay, so tell me, like, you know. Cause that's a classic. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:23] Speaker C: That's, like, a classic in the black community. Like, if you ain't seen that, like, your car might give her a vote, honey. But what did you think? What? When you first saw the scenes of when Tina Turner was like, nam yo ho ring egg yo nam yoho? Ring egg yo nam yoho? And, like, when. Cause I know so many black people, we've seen that. But I think most people either don't think about that moment or, like, did that moment. Did you. Did it stand out to you? What did you think about that? Or Buddhism at the time? [00:54:59] Speaker B: I mean, I was young when I saw it, so it didn't stay. [00:55:02] Speaker C: It registered. [00:55:04] Speaker B: And, of course, you know, as an adult, when you look back at a lot of movies that you've seen, you know, you look at it in a different way. And unfortunately, I haven't seen it, you know, recently. To look back at it through a different lens. [00:55:15] Speaker C: Well, let me tell you, go back, okay? Go back and watch it. And the reason why I want you to go back and watch it, and I keep saying this to people. I'm, like, spreading the gospel. You know, this is how I, like, kind of tell people about Buddhism a little bit. But, you know, first of all, I'm just so grateful for Tina Turner and her life force. It's what I want for our people to get most out of that story, too, is just like how you can decide to shift the energy in your life, to shift the control in your life, and to fight for your right to be respected and valued in your life. And I think that's why I say that in this formal way. But I believe that people, I'm always be a champion and introduce people to Buddhism and say, come here, do this, and blah, blah, blah. But I'm always also just try to sit here and be a reflection in a mirror to those things that you have access to right now in your life. And not only that you have access to now, but even to be able to look back at your life and look back at those moments where you chose, you chose yourself, you chose your vision, you chose optimism or hope over that other thought. And just knowing that those moments that you were talking about crying on the train or quitting the job, these small moments is what it means to win every day, in everyday small moments. Cause those little things you talked about. [00:57:00] Speaker B: It all adds up. [00:57:02] Speaker C: Added up to where you are right now. [00:57:04] Speaker B: Absolutely. Every step, every tear, every mistake, every, you know, all the money I had to fish out to get the right equipment, whether, you know, it broke and I had to buy another one or a replacement, all the studios that I had to book on my own, all the trips back and forth to H and M to buy the clothes and to return it, all of that matters, you know, making a conscious mind to, you know, leave my first agent to find my agent who I'm with now, who I absolutely, 1000% love not being. [00:57:39] Speaker C: Complacent and knowing when to still push. [00:57:41] Speaker B: Yup, yup. Like everything really mattered, that everything that I've done has gotten me to where I'm at right now. So. [00:57:48] Speaker C: Well, I just want to say congratulations again on just such an amazing career. I know that it's going to be even more incredible, especially because at some point I'm going to end up in the portfolio. We're going to figure it out. [00:58:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:58:01] Speaker C: We got to figure it out because, I mean, look, you know, I mean, the material. So, so we definitely got getting your portfolio. What's next for you? Do you, are you, because you mentioned a lot of things like direction, photography, direction, whatever. Do you, what do you, what do you want to see for your life, to be honest? [00:58:19] Speaker B: Like, in terms of my career as a photographer, I'm on cruise control. So I just want to continue doing what I'm doing right now. But also, I really want to continue to give back, even in a bigger way, to get more mentors under my belt. And the reason why I say that is because, again, in the space of lifestyle photography, there's not a lot of us in that space. And a lot of times, a lot of people think when it comes to photography that they only have to do fashion or they only have to do celebrity. You know, there's a whole new world that's untapped by a lot of people who look like me, who are just not aware. And there's some people who, I introduce it to them, and they're taking that. They're taking that path, and it's working for them. But I just know that there's a lot of other photographers who look at what a lot of popular things that are being shot. And it's cool because, first of all, they have to understand the difference between, you know, if people are doing photography as, like, just a creative outlet, which is perfectly fine, you can explore, you can do whatever you want to. But if all I want to do is just shed light to the possibilities of where photography can not only fuel your creative, that creative space in your body, but can also. You can live off of that and just do that full time. So my goal is to. I really want to just continue to mentor no matter how. No matter. I love the mentees that I have with my current agent who's running a mentorship program. But if I could just get that bigger and bigger. [00:59:49] Speaker C: Well, listen, I'm going to help you with that, too, because, you know, I run an organization called Trans Tech, and we, every year, we have a Transtech summit. And basically what it is is, you know, folks from the LGBTQ community teaching each other, sharing skills and tech skills. And so what's happened is when I created Transtech, I wanted to make sure that black and brown people understood we need to take the elitism out of the word tech. And folks think, oh, boot camp, coding, php, css, mysql, you know, whatever. But tech is also photography. Tech is also lighting. And you can be very successful if you take tech outside the box and you think outside the box. You have been successful for thinking outside the box. Congratulations. I cannot wait to see what happens next on cruise control, and I can't wait to see what we do on photos. Thank you for being here today. [01:00:45] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. [01:00:46] Speaker A: And we will be right back. Now, before we go, I just want to drop another buddhist breadcrumb and talk about the concept of good and evil in Nichiren. Buddhism, we learned that there is no good in isolation from evil. I've talked before on this podcast about the buddhist concept of oneness in environment, in which we learn that we are not separate from our environments. Well, there's also the principle of oneness of good and evil. As I was studying today, I came across this passage that says if evil functions to reveal good, then evil can be transformed into good. This is truly the oneness of good and evil. But if evil is simply allowed to run its course, then it does not become good. Only when evil is thoroughly challenged and conquered does it become an entity of the oneness of good and evil. It goes on to say, the oneness of good and evil does not mean that good and evil are the same. Such a way of thinking amounts to an affirmation of evil. The lotus sutras doctrine of the oneness of good and evil is about constantly striving to create good and even changing evil into good. So with that being said, y'all, it's impossible to experience good vibes only as much as we try. We cannot protect ourselves from witnessing and experiencing the evil in this world. There is no good in isolation from evil. Therefore, this week I want us all to muster up the courage to face the evil in this world, to challenge it, to not be afraid, to speak up until we are able to conquer it and turn all this evil into good. No opportunity wasted.